Ex-Post Office CEO Paula Vennells

[Bonefishblues]

Breaking news

https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... t-13057745

[pete75]

I'd argue that the abuse of legal process, even in pursuit of a just cause would be even more corrosive.

And I’d argue that that ship has sailed. The PO scandal shows enormous abuse of legal process and my suspicion is that it is but the tip of the ice-berg. It really should be clear to all concerned that the legal profession have had a large hand in this scandal and as such some professionals on the prosecution side deserve to be (at the very least) struck-off.

The best thing that could be done for the legal process is for the profession to take a critical look at itself and then take action against those seeking abuse and manipulate the law - as so clearly happened in the abuse in the PO scandal.

Just for clarity, do you now resile from your earlier view quoted below?

I’m rather puzzled at the seeming stance that PO management deserves any different justice to that which was inflicted by them on innocent folk. Frankly I don’t care if they aren’t treated fairly, let them suffer injustice (too) and be an example to others.

Chap obviously belongs to the two wrongs make a right school of thought.

[Carlton green]

I'd argue that the abuse of legal process, even in pursuit of a just cause would be even more corrosive.

And I’d argue that that ship has sailed. The PO scandal shows enormous abuse of legal process and my suspicion is that it is but the tip of the ice-berg. It really should be clear to all concerned that the legal profession have had a large hand in this scandal and as such some professionals on the prosecution side deserve to be (at the very least) struck-off.

The best thing that could be done for the legal process is for the profession to take a critical look at itself and then take action against those seeking abuse and manipulate the law - as so clearly happened in the abuse in the PO scandal.

Just for clarity, do you now resile from your earlier view quoted below?

I’m rather puzzled at the seeming stance that PO management deserves any different justice to that which was inflicted by them on innocent folk. Frankly I don’t care if they aren’t treated fairly, let them suffer injustice (too) and be an example to others.

‘Resile’, that’s a word I’ve not heard in common use. I wonder whether you’re of a legal background?

I actually don’t see the two views particularly conflicting. One relates to the directors of these truly dreadful acts and the other is much more broadly based of the legal system itself which has allowed its members to act in clearly self interested (anything for money) and clearly immoral ways.

Here is another example of wrecked lives: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68084538

I say give the perpetrators as fair a trial as they gave their victims. So that would be effectively no funds to defend themselves, loaded evidence and a formidable prosecution team, etc.

Do two wrongs make a right? That depends, but giving these folk an easy ride sends out a completely wrong message and enough is now known by the general public (ie. information in the public domain) for guilt (of very significant misconduct) to be clear enough for practical purposes, so throw the book at them. I really do think that the penalties for such consequential white collar crime should be frighteningly harsh - let them be done to as they have done to others.

[Bonefishblues]

You've made your position clear.

[Mike Sales]

They should be prosecuted with the proper procedure of the Law, so that they learn how these things should be done, and why their actions were so wrong.
That is why we have laws, and not revenge.

[Carlton green]

You've made your position clear.

Perhaps you might restate yours please and tell us whether you’re a current or ex legal professional.

If a current or ex legal professional then how do you feel about the part that your colleagues have played in supporting these horrendous actions?

[Bonefishblues]

I am neither of those things. I speak for myself, nobody else.

I think that a suggestion that the integrity of the legal process available to any individual should be diminished on the basis of their alleged crimes is utterly abhorrent.

[Carlton green]

I am neither of those things. I speak for myself, nobody else.

I think that a suggestion that the integrity of the legal process available to any individual should be diminished on the basis of their alleged crimes is utterly abhorrent.

Thank you. You have made your position clear.

In normal circumstances I would be of similar mind to yourself in wishing the integrity of the law and courts to be as perfect as was possible. However these are not normal circumstances, guilt of repeated wrong doing and cover-up is blatant, and those responsible must be given no quarter whatsoever to wriggle away from the penalties that their actions so rightly deserve. Throw the book at them and may many of them either end their days in prison or, at least, be financially broken by their actions.

…. the Post Office is reeling from the fallout from the Horizon scandal, which has been called the biggest miscarriage of justice in UK history.
More than 700 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses were prosecuted between 1999 and 2015 after faulty accounting software Horizon made it look as though money was missing from their shops.
Many of those affected were financially ruined.
The issue recently came to wider public attention after it was depicted in an ITV drama. and public anger led to the former Post Office boss Paula Vennells handing back her CBE.
Senior figures from the Post Office and the technology firm Fujitsu, which developed the Horizon software, are currently facing questions at a public inquiry over what happened.

My underlining.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68118970

[Bonefishblues]

Your view undermines the Rule of Law. Fortunately it won't be allowed to prevail.

[pete75]

Your view undermines the Rule of Law. Fortunately it won't be allowed to prevail.

It provides a vision of what the justice system may become if a right wing populist party ever gains power.

[Carlton green]

Your view undermines the Rule of Law. Fortunately it won't be allowed to prevail.

I’m amazed that you can not see it but the ‘rule of law’ is already in tatters. Justice, whatever that is, is too often whatever result the rich, powerful and well connected want. Outcomes in Court are swung by the relative strength of legal teams, etc. Effectively one law for some and another for others. As an older person I look back and see how abuse of laws and legal process has helped and enabled the rich and powerful to live off of the backs of those less fortunate. Only the other evening I was listening to a radio program about how performing artists were often robbed of their intellectual property by record labels. My view won’t be allowed to prevail; the rich, powerful and well connected will be allowed to manipulate and hide behind the current system, there will be no actual justice.

[Stradageek]

The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
History of the Peloponnesian War bk. 5, ch. 89

Adam Smith warned that we should be wary of businesses that become too large. He recognised that the government should keep an eye on their activities, but believed it was dangerous for large businesses to influence politics and legislation.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[Bonefishblues]

Your view undermines the Rule of Law. Fortunately it won't be allowed to prevail.

I’m amazed that you can not see it but the ‘rule of law’ is already in tatters. Justice, whatever that is, is too often whatever result the rich, powerful and well connected want. Outcomes in Court are swung by the relative strength of legal teams, etc. Effectively one law for some and another for others. As an older person I look back and see how abuse of laws and legal process has helped and enabled the rich and powerful to live off of the backs of those less fortunate. Only the other evening I was listening to a radio program about how performing artists were often robbed of their intellectual property by record labels. My view won’t be allowed to prevail; the rich, powerful and well connected will be allowed to manipulate and hide behind the current system, there will be no actual justice.

You point is that the Rule of Law is in tatters, so it's OK to abandon it.

Can you see an issue with that, perhaps? I can.

[Carlton green]

Your view undermines the Rule of Law. Fortunately it won't be allowed to prevail.

I’m amazed that you can not see it but the ‘rule of law’ is already in tatters. Justice, whatever that is, is too often whatever result the rich, powerful and well connected want. Outcomes in Court are swung by the relative strength of legal teams, etc. Effectively one law for some and another for others. As an older person I look back and see how abuse of laws and legal process has helped and enabled the rich and powerful to live off of the backs of those less fortunate. Only the other evening I was listening to a radio program about how performing artists were often robbed of their intellectual property by record labels. My view won’t be allowed to prevail; the rich, powerful and well connected will be allowed to manipulate and hide behind the current system, there will be no actual justice.

You point is that the Rule of Law is in tatters, so it's OK to abandon it.

Can you see an issue with that, perhaps? I can.

If that’s your interpretation then it’s not the message intended. I’d like to see fair law and order restored, but at the same time one needs to recognise that some folk play dirty and treat them accordingly. The Post Office scandal shows just how dirty some folk play and how important it is to firmly and vigorously hold those people to account and to publicly punish them as both reward (for their sins) and deterrent (for others to learn from).

I note from today’s front pages (Telegraph?) that at least four sub-postmasters committed suicide due to the PO’s actions. One could say that the PO (effectively) murdered those people.

[Bonefishblues]

One can and should hold the culpable to account. The law should be used to do this. It is more than adequate in this regard.

The law should not be 'bent' to do this, which is the path you appear to be advocating.