Toe / wheel overlap?

[Mick F]

.......and you have to use the inside pedal which pushes you off balance .......

There's many a thing I've read on this forum that has got me thinking.

When I ride, I don't think HOW I do it, I just DO it.

Like a bird flying: a bird doesn't know or care how it's done, it just gets on with doing what comes naturally.

I couldn't tell you whether I use my left, right, inside or outside pedal to do a tight turn! I just turn! I must pay attention, and see how I do it.
(It was the same with Emergency Stops - remember that thread on braking?)

[aesmith]

I really can't understand why this issue should generate any heat.

It's a feature that some bikes have, and some do not. It might make a bike unsuitable for, or unappealing to some users, but clearly many people are quite happy.

The same could be said of close-ratio gears, or dropped handlebars. Racks and panniers could be pretty dangerous as well - people might overload them. I don't see (I hope) anyone campaigning to make any of these illegal.

Tony S

[Wildduck]

The overlap on my tourer has never caused a problem in 17 years. Hard to avoid with a 19.5" frame and size 10/11 shoes (yes, I do look a bit like a duck!).

[ianr1950]

I agree with aesmith and MickF, and as I said in my earlier post I don't know if any of my bikes suffer ( if thats the right word for it) with it but I just get on and ride it and even if my old fixed bike has it it too has not caused me any problems.

I sometimes think that you can read too much into something like this and not see the bigger picture in that if you are comfortable and not thought about such issues until someone mentioned it then don't worry about it just get out and ride the bike.

[WesBrooks]

Whoops, hit a raw nerve there!

Thanks very much for the replies. I guess it's another one of those issues where some do & some don't like it. For track bikes (my old speedway bike suffered it, but you needed to get your inside foot out anyway when cornering), and perhaps TT bikes I wouldn't be that bothered about it as I guess you have to turn fairly sharply before it's a problem.

However I'm still inclined to take CJ stance on it, but a little surprised this decision seems to limit my choice somewhat. If I were to get a bike along these lines then it would be used for touring with the occasional commute in heavy traffic, so the ability to avoid idiots who present themselves with little warning without having to complete up to 1/4 of a turn on the cranks (2.1m in my current top gear, or 1.3m in a fast cruise gear) before swerving.

Thankfully I'm a long limbed 6'3 so long top tube isn't so much of a problem. My 13 feet counter act this a little though!

Thanks again.

[aesmith]

However I'm still inclined to take CJ stance on it, but a little surprised this decision seems to limit my choice somewhat.

Judging by his post, CJs stance seems to be that bikes with toe-clip overlap should be banned. That's all about reducing the choice available to all of us who don't find it a problem. A bit "nanny state" if you ask me.

Tony

[WesBrooks]

Sorry, didn't mean that, just meant I'd be looking for one with no overlap.

[CJ]

Judging by his post, CJs stance seems to be that bikes with toe-clip overlap should be banned. That's all about reducing the choice available to all of us who don't find it a problem. A bit "nanny state" if you ask me.

I wouldn't ban them, I wouldn't even ban the sale of them. I agree that it's possible to live with toe overlap, with due care, but I don't think that bikes that exhibit this, let's call it a trait, should be on general sale to the unsuspecting public.

I'd make it that the customer had to sign a disclaimer to the effect that he/she understood the inherent dangers, before such bikes could be sold.

I actually think this would be a much more straightforward and honest way of dealing with bikes that don't conform to other well-meaning but occasionally inconvenient requirements the Pedal Cycles Safety Safety Regulations, than selling them without pedals!

[pigman]

and what about a disclaimer for the possibility of an altercation with a car, or simply falling off, or that the bars/stem arent tightened enough resulting in accident, or (like Ive seen many a time) using a QR wheel skewer as a wingnut .. etc, etc..

One prevoius post said it was a bit nanny state, signing disclaimers for toe overlap is really going for it

[Paul Smith SRCC]

Overlap is definitely something you need to be aware of, although once you are it is seldom a major problem unless you are pedalling and turning the bars at low speed, such as weaving in and out of traffic for example.

I rode a fixed with overlap for twenty years on my commute/winter bike, at one stage this included an 18 mile each way ride through suburban London

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

[CJ]

and what about a disclaimer for the possibility of an altercation with a car, or simply falling off, or that the bars/stem arent tightened enough resulting in accident, or (like Ive seen many a time) using a QR wheel skewer as a wingnut .. etc, etc..

One prevoius post said it was a bit nanny state, signing disclaimers for toe overlap is really going for it

I'm glad you mentioned the QR issue. I know how to use a quick release, but the regulations insist that the front fork on any new bike that I buy has lawyers lips that turn it into a not-quite-as-slow release, becasue Joe Public doesn't know how.

I think that demanding Joe Public signs a document saying that he has seen, understood and practised the use of the quick-release, is less of a nanny state than we already have, and more responsible than selling Joe Public a bike without pedals or any explanation at all.

I advocate a regime of informed choice, that is all.

[Paul Smith SRCC]

and what about a disclaimer for the possibility of an altercation with a car, or simply falling off, or that the bars/stem arent tightened enough resulting in accident, or (like Ive seen many a time) using a QR wheel skewer as a wingnut .. etc, etc..

One prevoius post said it was a bit nanny state, signing disclaimers for toe overlap is really going for it

I'm glad you mentioned the QR issue. I know how to use a quick release, but the regulations insist that the front fork on any new bike that I buy has lawyers lips that turn it into a not-quite-as-slow release, becasue Joe Public doesn't know how.

I think that demanding Joe Public signs a document saying that he has seen, understood and practised the use of the quick-release, is less of a nanny state than we already have, and more responsible than selling Joe Public a bike without pedals or any explanation at all.

I advocate a regime of informed choice, that is all.

It is something I often mention when talking someone through a bike with overlap, although not always, in effect I make reference to it if I feel it is appropriate. For example I normally ask what the customer what their bike history is so I can make reference to any differences from what they have been using, if they only list bikes without overlap then I highlight it, but if they are simply updating their bike that already has overlap with another that also does then I normally wouldn’t.

Signing something, perhaps the receipt on purchase would be an idea though, not only about specific things like overlap or quick release of course but about all the more general concerns relating to bike and long term safety, such as it is the responsibility of the owner to keep the bike in good working order and so on.

I would expect most good bike shops to do this verbally as matter of course, even though you can tell that often the information just goes in one ear and out the other. As such we have recently started to write to those who buy bikes reminding them that they get a first free service, when they bring it in we ask them not only if they are enjoying their new bike but if they have any queries about it they would like to talk through.

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

[aesmith]

I wouldn't ban them, I wouldn't even ban the sale of them.

but I don't think that bikes that exhibit this, let's call it a trait, should be on general sale

That second point sounds like support for a ban to me.

I actually think this would be a much more straightforward and honest way of dealing with bikes that don't conform to other well-meaning but occasionally inconvenient requirements the Pedal Cycles Safety Safety Regulations, than selling them without pedals!

Removing the pedals would certainly stop them overlapping the wheel. Or you could sell them without a front wheel.

[aesmith]

OK, a question for the experts.

Just taking the example of my bike, a 23.5" frame with horizontal top tube, and 73/73 degree angles. How would you change that to remove top-clip overlap? What effect would those changes have on the bikes fit, performance and handling?

I'm not a frame designer, but I assume that the overlap wasn't designed in deliberately, but only arrived as a side-effect of geometry that was needed for the intended purpose.

[CJ]

OK, a question for the experts.

Just taking the example of my bike, a 23.5" frame with horizontal top tube, and 73/73 degree angles. How would you change that to remove top-clip overlap? What effect would those changes have on the bikes fit, performance and handling?

I'm not a frame designer, but I assume that the overlap wasn't designed in deliberately, but only arrived as a side-effect of geometry that was needed for the intended purpose.

Increase the top-tube length and reduce the stem extension by the same amount. Unfortunately this is limited by available stems. It's not that shorter stems do anything bad to steering, in fact handlebars work better when their middle is nearer the steering axis, just that males of above average height in a fully stretched racing position have no need of them on current frame designs.

Regarding the intended purpose: most pro racers are tall young(ish) men and of course their bodies are trained so they can get really aerodynamic i.e. stretched out on a bike. Most of them probably don't have any toe overlap actually. The rest of you, including shorter blokes and those with bad backs, want bikes that look superficially the same as the professionals ride and the long stem is a distinctive part of that look. So you get toe overlap. Meanwhile those of us who would rather avoid it cannot easily buy the length of stem we need to do so.

The other solution is to make the head angle less whilst increasing fork offset (AKA "rake" in bicycling circles) to keep trail the same. Trail is the main determinant of handling, so if that can be done the bike will feel much the same. This was possible in the days when the frame builder also made the fork to suit. But now the fork is an outsourced component that comes with 43mm offset, take it or leave it, or maybe a bit more if you search really hard, but even that will only be tinkering at the edges. With the kind of head angle a short rider really needs, these standard forks produce dull steering.

This is how racing fashion, created by images of Tour de France and the like, lumbers the ordinary enthusiast with an invidious choice of toe overlap or an uncomfortable slow-steering bike.

My agenda is to make toe overlap less acceptable in the marketplace, which will cause bike manufacturers to demand from their component suppliers the shorter stems and greater fork offsets with which they can produce bikes that give shorter, older riders the best possible performance without this trait. These bikes will necessarily look slightly different, but they'll work just fine. At the moment the only way you can have that is with a full custom build, including custom stem and fork, which means steel or titanium, with either a weight or a price penalty, or both.