Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

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Bicycler
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Bicycler »

kuba wrote:But even if she and not him were on red, and shouted abuse at him, that still doesn't justify his assault in the slightest and that's the issue here.

Well that's the one issue we're all completely agreed upon. It's inarguable and really doesn't warrant further discussion. We don't need 30 posts stating the blatantly obvious that he was wrong to push her from her bike, regardless of any provocation.

The wider issue of whether it is wise for us (as road users) to enter into confrontation seems to me to be more interesting and something where people may have different opinions. I see it as needless and something which can only encourage an argument. I am in no doubt that I would not have put myself in that position. Others I suspect may not think it right that perceived wrong doing on the parts of other road users should go unchallenged.
kuba
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by kuba »

Bicycler wrote:No it isn't it's a separate discussion. I went to some length to point out that the blame remained his and only his. That is not to say that there aren't ways in which we can reduce opportunities for unnecessary conflict. Far too often we see incidents like this which would not have happened if people were just that bit less confrontational.


Saying that we should avoid unnecessary conflict is stating the obvious, isn't it? But the problem with stating it in this context is that it helps perpetrators feel vindicated and victims feel guilty. You say she's not to blame, but then suggest she - or a hypothetical someone in an incident like this - could be 'that bit less confrontational'. I don't get it. This video doesn't show unnecessary conflict, it shows an assault.
Psamathe
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Psamathe »

Bicycler wrote:...The wider issue of whether it is wise for us (as road users) to enter into confrontation seems to me to be more interesting and something where people may have different opinions. I see it as needless and something which can only encourage an argument. I am in no doubt that I would not have put myself in that position. Others I suspect may not think it right that perceived wrong doing on the parts of other road users should go unchallenged.

Difficult one. But I think if all cyclists always give way to everybody, everything under all circumstances, assume they are at fault and that everybody else has priority, etc. then everybody else will happily adopt the position that cyclists get out of your way have to give way, etc. and that can cause life to get worse.

But at the same time, being confrontational is probably not going to help either. Let wrongdoing go unchallenged and the wrongdoers just carry on doing wrong and push it even further.

Maybe the answer lies elsewhere e.g. maybe if the Police did not wait around for evidence like this case where they can't find any excuses for their normal "do nothing".

Ian
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Mick F
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Mick F »

I'm not condoning the assailant.
Please take that as read. I hope the police find him before he does this again.

We don't know the history of this.
We don't know the (unknown) chap or why he was like he was and why he reacted like this.
I'm sure - from the "evidence" - it was unprevoked by the female cyclist, but why did he do what he did?

Can we see it from his point of view?
Difficult as it is, but why did he do it?
Society? Drunk? Upbringing? Mental health?
Mick F. Cornwall
Bicycler
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Bicycler »

Psamathe wrote:
Bicycler wrote:...The wider issue of whether it is wise for us (as road users) to enter into confrontation seems to me to be more interesting and something where people may have different opinions. I see it as needless and something which can only encourage an argument. I am in no doubt that I would not have put myself in that position. Others I suspect may not think it right that perceived wrong doing on the parts of other road users should go unchallenged.

Difficult one. But I think if all cyclists always give way to everybody, everything under all circumstances, assume they are at fault and that everybody else has priority, etc. then everybody else will happily adopt the position that cyclists get out of your way have to give way, etc. and that can cause life to get worse.

Note that I said "as road users" rather than "as cyclists" and also made no mention of fault or not having priority. I didn't think the suggestion that vehicles should allow pedestrians in the road time to cross was so controversial.

kuba wrote:Saying that we should avoid unnecessary conflict is stating the obvious, isn't it? But the problem with stating it in this context is that it helps perpetrators feel vindicated and victims feel guilty. You say she's not to blame, but then suggest she - or a hypothetical someone in an incident like this - could be 'that bit less confrontational'.

The 'victim blaming' issue is always going to raise its head when discussing crime prevention in light of crimes which have occurred. It's a paradox; we cannot discuss how to protect ourselves from becoming victims without being interpreted as blaming exiting victims. I did all I could in every post to point out that I thought the blame could only lie with the perpetrator. Look at this analogy. A bike thief is always 100% to blame for the crime of stealing a bike regardless of any action of the owner. This needn't stop us discussing how people might reasonably prevent their bikes from being stolen. This bloke was similarly 100% to blame for his actions. My question was - given the number of these incidents we see reported, where an innocent comment ignites a short fuse which escalates to a road rage incident- is confronting other road users something we might wish to carefully avoid doing?
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Mick F
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Mick F »

Bicycler wrote:This bloke was similarly 100% to blame for his actions.
Was he 100% to blame?
Was he not a victim of society or mentally deranged?
How do we know until he's arrested and investigated?
Bicycler wrote:My question was - given the number of these incidents we see reported, where an innocent comment ignites a short fuse which escalates to a road rage incident- is confronting other road users something we might wish to carefully avoid doing?
Exactly.

I remember bullies at school, they made some people's lives - including mine - rather unbearable. Do we blame the bullies, or do we blame their environment? What turns people into bullies with them persecuting the innocent?
Mick F. Cornwall
beardy
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by beardy »

Do we blame the bullies, or do we blame their environment? What turns people into bullies and them persecuting the innocent?


Oh go on, lets blame them for their bullying. They can still be left with the option to repent and change their ways but until they do lets blame them, catch them and stop them.
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Mick F
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by Mick F »

This is why the prisons are overcrowded.
Maybe we should bring back Transportation and send them somewhere.
Mick F. Cornwall
kuba
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by kuba »

I don't think there's much of a paradox here. Discussions about preventing road rage are all fine, just like discussions about best methods of preventing bike theft: locking up bikes? thieves? reducing inequalities that breed crime? all above? etc. They only become problematic when held in the context of a particular crime and a particular victim, because they replace the question of of what can be done with what the victim could have done. And that's unfair.
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jan19
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by jan19 »

BBC London news tonight said a man had voluntarily attended a police station in connection with the incident.

Jan
reohn2
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by reohn2 »

What strikes me is if he was in so much of a hurry to get where he's going,how come he was so willing to divert and run after the cyclist?
She's obviously no threat to him even if she gave him the finger.

Perhaps the cyclist could've stopped and let him cross but he looks like it wouldn't have hurt him to wait.
Also why would the cyclist give him the finger in the first place?
Could it have been in response to his abuse toward her for not stopping?
If so with 20/20 hindsight it's a mistake on her part but does it warrant what followed?

People up thread are posting that he's an idiot,he's not he's a lout,and a bully,and for such a potentially dangerous assault needs severely punishing.
Truth is that if he's caught he'll probably get a slap on the wrist,that's what's wrong.Because he thinks he can get away with it he feels he can practice his sickly behaviour,on someone who's no threat to him other than literally lift her finger in his direction.
A sad,dangerous and sickly lout.
Last edited by reohn2 on 25 Aug 2015, 7:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by reohn2 »

Mick F wrote:This is why the prisons are overcrowded.
Maybe we should bring back Transportation and send them somewhere.


Yep,send 'em all to Cornwall :mrgreen:
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kwackers
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:Perhaps the cyclist could've stopped and let him cross but he looks like it wouldn't have hurt him to wait.
Also why would the cyclist give him the finger in the first place?
Could it have been in response to his abuse toward her for not stopping?
If so with 20/20 hindsight it's a mistake on her part but does it warrant what followed?

I think there are two issues. The second is obviously assault and I think we're pretty much agreed he deserves what's coming to him.

But to my mind the first issue is more interesting in particularly what it means to our attitudes on the road.
So there's a person in the carriageway. Doesn't matter whether they should be there or not, whether they crossed on red or teleported in. They're fairly obviously there, they're fairly obviously crossing and at that point they've been crossing long enough for approaching traffic to make the decision to back off a little and let them cross.
The very first thing the highway code says is you have to avoid accidents, not that you should insist on your 'right of way'. Avoiding accidents in this instance means allowing someone on the carriageway to vacate it even if it means slowing slightly.
To me this one incidence is part of the bigger picture of how we see things in this country with the old 'might is right' attitude. If I'm bigger or faster I have right of way, if you're in my way rather than yield I'll simply bully my way through.
If I were that cyclist tbh once I'd calmed down I'd have put it down to experience and binned the video but I suspect they think their cycling is above reproach.
mercalia
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by mercalia »

there is a picture of him in the Evening Standard this evening. The video doesnt really get him? He is an ugly so and so.
kuba
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Post by kuba »

kwackers wrote:The very first thing the highway code says is you have to avoid accidents, not that you should insist on your 'right of way'. Avoiding accidents in this instance means allowing someone on the carriageway to vacate it even if it means slowing slightly.


Did she fail to avoid an accident? The only 'accident' in the video is her being pushed onto the road.

kwackers wrote:If I were that cyclist tbh once I'd calmed down I'd have put it down to experience and binned the video but I suspect they think their cycling is above reproach.


And what is that suspicion based on?
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