Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

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irc
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

aspiringcyclist wrote:And this is where the victim blaming comes in. Cyclists avoiding the door zone is mitigation for other people's behaviour. The same way avoiding certain areas at night is and looking even if the pelican crossing light is green.


And these are all good things. If you take needless risks and it goes wrong then you are partly to blame. We mitigate for other people all the time. The Highway Code is full of advice to mitigate other people's behaviour.

look well ahead for obstructions in the road, such as drains, pot-holes and parked vehicles so that you do not have to swerve suddenly to avoid them. Leave plenty of room when passing parked vehicles and watch out for doors being opened


All cyclists should consider the benefits of undertaking cycle training


You can either believe that if you do nothing wrong you are OK or you can believe that other people are always going to make mistakes and being a safe driver or cyclist involves anticipating what hazards there are and doing what you can to mitigate the consequences of a mistake.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Vorpal »

irc wrote:You can either believe that if you do nothing wrong you are OK or you can believe that other people are always going to make mistakes and being a safe driver or cyclist involves anticipating what hazards there are and doing what you can to mitigate the consequences of a mistake.


But that is very different from blaming the cyclist for getting hit by a door.

You might as well blame me for letting myself be hidden by a large vehicle, or obscured by the setting sun. Those are also hazards that can be anticipated.

Maybe the cyclist was anticipating more hazard form the taxi driver wanting to overtake behind him than from a parked car?
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Postboxer
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Postboxer »

And where do you draw the line, would it be safer to use a different route? Are they then partly to blame for riding down that road when there may be a safer alternative? Would it be safer to work from home, have your shopping delivered etc etc.
Bicycler
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Bicycler »

well, quite... Most of the UK population appreciate the hazards of cycling on the road and they understand the mistakes that drivers may make. They choose to mitigate the consequences of such a mistake by not cycling on the roads. If we ever want this to change we need a change to the attitude that treats drivers' dangerous behaviour as mere innocent mistakes to be expected and accommodated by other road users.

The direction this thread has taken makes me wonder how you can ever give crime prevention advice without somebody using that to transfer blame from perpetrator to victim.
irc
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Postboxer wrote:And where do you draw the line, would it be safer to use a different route? Are they then partly to blame for riding down that road when there may be a safer alternative? Would it be safer to work from home, have your shopping delivered etc etc.


I consider the safety of different routes when choosing which one to take. Why wouldn't you? If I'm driving and I've got a choice of two routes taking similar time I'll take the longer motorway route because motorways are safer and more relaxing to drive than urban streets with frequent junctions and shared with children, dogs, cyclists etc..
irc
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Bicycler wrote:The direction this thread has taken makes me wonder how you can ever give crime prevention advice without somebody using that to transfer blame from perpetrator to victim.


Do you lock your doors at night? It's mitigating someone else's possible action. We can blame the burglar while still saying it isn't wise to make it easy for him. As for the cyclist in the video. He had a choice of riding in the doorzone and risking a dooring or the minor hassle of shoulder checking, signalling, and moving out. He chose the easy option and rolled the dice with the doorzone. He lost.
Bicycler
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Bicycler »

Well I think we've come full circle here. My original point was that we can advise people as to a prudent course of action to prevent crime but that does not change the blame for the crime. A burglar is still 100% to blame for a burglary regardless of whether doors are locked. That driver was still 100% to blame despite the fact that the cyclist could have ridden elsewhere.

irc wrote:I consider the safety of different routes when choosing which one to take. Why wouldn't you? If I'm driving and I've got a choice of two routes taking similar time I'll take the longer motorway route because motorways are safer and more relaxing to drive than urban streets with frequent junctions and shared with children, dogs, cyclists etc..

And , if someone were to be crashed into on a rural A-road with an adjacent motorway , would they be partially to blame because they didn't take the safer route?
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Bicycler wrote:Well I think we've come full circle here. My original point was that we can advise people as to a prudent course of action to prevent crime but that does not change the blame. A burglar is still 100% to blame for a burglary regardless of whether doors are locked. That driver was still 100% to blame despite the fact that the cyclist could have acted differently.


No. The cyclist shares the blame for riding in the doorzone against the advice of the Highway Code. As I said earlier if the cyclist had hit a child emerging between cars he would have been at fault. His cycling doesn't become blameless because what actually happened was he came off worse.
irc
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Bicycler wrote:Well I think we've come full circle here. My original point was that we can advise people as to a prudent course of action to prevent crime but that does not change the blame for the crime. A burglar is still 100% to blame for a burglary regardless of whether doors are locked. That driver was still 100% to blame despite the fact that the cyclist could have ridden elsewhere.

irc wrote:I consider the safety of different routes when choosing which one to take. Why wouldn't you? If I'm driving and I've got a choice of two routes taking similar time I'll take the longer motorway route because motorways are safer and more relaxing to drive than urban streets with frequent junctions and shared with children, dogs, cyclists etc..

And , if someone were to be crashed into on a rural A-road with an adjacent motorway , would they be partially to blame because they didn't take the safer route?


It depends on the circumstances of the accident. What is certain is that they increased their risk of an accident.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Bicycler »

irc wrote:
Bicycler wrote:Well I think we've come full circle here. My original point was that we can advise people as to a prudent course of action to prevent crime but that does not change the blame. A burglar is still 100% to blame for a burglary regardless of whether doors are locked. That driver was still 100% to blame despite the fact that the cyclist could have acted differently.


No. The cyclist shares the blame for riding in the doorzone against the advice of the Highway Code. As I said earlier if the cyclist had hit a child emerging between cars he would have been at fault. His cycling doesn't become blameless because what actually happened was he came off worse.

But a cyclist in the door zone is less likely to harm a child than a car in the same position. So presumably drivers should also avoid the door zone?
aspiringcyclist
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by aspiringcyclist »

irc wrote: As for the cyclist in the video. He had a choice of riding in the doorzone and risking a dooring or the minor hassle of shoulder checking, signalling, and moving out. He chose the easy option and rolled the dice with the doorzone. He lost.


That implies he knew the about the dangers.

We aren't saying you shouldn't advise cyclists about the door zone, however the blame lies with the driver.

The difference between the driver and cyclists is that one is a recommendation and the other is law. Besides, do we really want to take the highway code to this degree? How about not wearing of helmets, hi viz?

I've found the highway code pretty useless with regards to cycling, anyway, because it just says 'take extra care' with no real explanation of what you could be doing.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by MikeF »

irc wrote:
According to the comments in the Evening Standard this wasn't a cycle lane. It is a bus lane active a certain times. There is a blue advisory cycle lane within the bus lane. The cyclist wasn't in the cycle lane though he was in the bus lane ..........
There is a blue cycle lane there but it's impossible to use because it's full of parked cars. Anyone who blocks a cycle lane must expect cyclists to be elsewhere. All those parked cars were breaking HC rule 240 and in the case of driver of the opening door 239 as well.
However HC is not the law so we have a system of codes and laws for roads. :roll: But there is a law about not causing an obstruction. :? Somehow cars need to be prevented from parking there.
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Ellieb
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Ellieb »

Perhaps he calculated that the risk of being doored was less than that of being clipped by a taxi carrying out a punishment pass because he wasn't in the cycle lane? Nobody is perfect. There is a difference between accepting that very few accidents are entirely due to one person's actions and saying that fault is always 50/50. It may not have been the wisest bit of road positioning ever, especially with hindsight, but some of these posts really are victim blaming.
robing
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by robing »

As a cyclist, self preservation is the name of the game. So although the motorist opening the door is to blame, the cyclist cyling so close the parked cars is asking for trouble. There's not much you can do to anticipate someone taking you out from behind, but you should be able to anticipate and avoid any potential hazards ahead of you.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

What the ${expletive} is wrong with people on here.

The cyclist was doing exactly what they are always told.
The taxi driver left about an inch too little space (better than a bus a couple of years ago).
The driver of the parked car was entirely at fault.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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