Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

AlaninWales wrote:I strongly disagree, this is going down the 'compulsory training' route, you may as well say that adults have no right to ride on the road until they have received and passed Bikeability 3.


I don't need a licence for a chainsaw either but if I bought one I would make sure I educated myself in the safe way of using it. I don't see what is controversial about pointing out that dooring accidents are avoidable and a prudent cyclist wouldn't have had that accident.
Last edited by irc on 6 Aug 2015, 11:13am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

661-Pete wrote: Teaching cyclists to 'avoid the door zone' is effectively a workaround for someone else's problem....


We teach children how to cross the road safely. Working round someone's problem or common sense?
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by reohn2 »

bovlomov wrote:
reohn2 wrote:... but many's the time both whilst driving an cycling I think the vehicle with the hazard lights flashing is indicating to move off because it's nearside indicator is obscured by the vehicle parked behind it,which gives a false impression.

It's a fundamental problem with hazard lights, and I'm surprised it hasn't been tackled by the motor manufacturers. There is simply no way of knowing which of the two functions an indicator is performing. You'd think it wouldn't be beyond them to devise a different pattern (long on/short off, or irregular?) for the hazard mode.


It's not rocket science is it :?
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Mark1978 »

aspiringcyclist wrote:Mistakes will happen, but the infrastructure doesn't allow for mistakes. That is the problem. As has been said we can't expect cyclists to know that they shouldn't use the infrastructure that has been designed as it is unsafe for them. In fact, that very notion is absurd and would almost never happen with anything else.


A very important point. Cyclists should be able to use any infrastructure as provided and be confident that is the safest route to take. So it's then wrong to say put blame on the cyclist for effectively doing what they have been told to do and putting their trust designers of the highway.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote:
661-Pete wrote: Teaching cyclists to 'avoid the door zone' is effectively a workaround for someone else's problem....


We teach children how to cross the road safely. Working round someone's problem or common sense?


I agree but the difference is that some,in fact most people will do as they're told whilst others won't,of course they'll suffer the consequences,but like the cyclist in the video not everyone has been doored or nearly,so as to think outside the box(or lane) so it really is a work around the (many)hazards facing cyclists.
A classic example is riding in secondary,instead of hugging the curb,many cyclists are just too frightened to move out into the traffic flow and make the motor traffic go around them,I see this all the time by experienced riders,fear is the primary driving force.
In the case of the door zone I'm more frightened of being doored rather than close/punishment passed,but then I'm 6ft tall and not frightened of assertive riding.At the other end of the scale a 5ft 2in inexperienced female may either not realise the door zone danger or be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
As in the OP's link therefore choose what seems to them to be the lesser of two evils.
Some of us are prepared to absorb the threats and bullying constantly dished out by motorists,more readily than others.
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AlaninWales
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by AlaninWales »

irc wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:I strongly disagree, this is going down the 'compulsory training' route, you may as well say that adults have no right to ride on the road until they have received and passed Bikeability 3.


I don't need a licence for a chainsaw either but if I bought one I would make sure I educated myself in the safe way of using it. I don't see what is controversial about pointing out that dooring accidents are avoidable and a prudent cyclist wouldn't have had that accident.

Excellent example! :D

When I bought my first chainsaw, I familiarized myself with the handbook and the safety instructions therein. That should be sufficient to keep me safe whilst using the chainsaw. I hope my neighbours who use them do the same.

When I first started cycling on the roads I familiarised myself with the safety handbook (Highway Code); it is quite possible this cyclist did so too. We all (on this forum) know what the HC says about using cycle facilities don't we!

As it happens, I have a mate who is a professional chainsaw safety instructor who gave me a few extra tips which are definitely not in the product handbook. We all have access on this forum to people who provide training in Bikeability. I learned to ride in (what turned out to be) Primary etc. without having heard of Cyclecraft. As above, it's a coping mechanism and not how we should (need to) be cycling. Neither of these are readily available to your average cyclist, lights and helmets ( :evil: ) are. IMO a normal, prudent cyclist may well not be aware that the safety handbook and the (professionally designed) facilities are simply wrong. A "competent and careful" driver OTOH should be abiding by the law which that handbook makes clear to him.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by MartinC »

AlaninWales wrote:............Excellent example!................


No it isn't. A better analogy is: before you had a chainsaw did you buy a manual and train yourself so that you were protected from other people using them (and all the other things that others may injure you with)?

Also, the cyclist is conforming to the Highway Code but not to the other secret code us experienced cyclists have learnt. Going back to the chainsaw example is there another, hidden manual that you familiarised yourself with before using it?
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by 661-Pete »

irc wrote:
661-Pete wrote: Teaching cyclists to 'avoid the door zone' is effectively a workaround for someone else's problem....


We teach children how to cross the road safely. Working round someone's problem or common sense?

A bit of both - but there's a huge difference. A cyclist - especially an inexperienced one - instructed to avoid the door zone, might be placing themselves in greater danger, especially if the road is busy. Crossing the road safely is, on the other hand, always the safest option.
Last edited by 661-Pete on 6 Aug 2015, 2:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Vorpal »

Heltor Chasca wrote:Apologies, as I can't get a grip of the definition of 'victim blaming'. It seems to be used in arguments and debates in many different contexts. Is there a clear explanation?

irc wrote:ISuicidal riding by the cyclist. He was dead centre in the bike lane until the door started opening. At the very least he should have been at the outer edge of the lane. But it should have been a quick shoulder check and move clear of the doorzone as the roadworks finished. One foot outside the lane would have cleared the door and still allowed a safe OT by the taxi.

Victim blaming = holding the victim (of a crime, act, etc.) partly or wholly responsible for his/her misfortune
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Vorpal wrote:
Heltor Chasca wrote:Apologies, as I can't get a grip of the definition of 'victim blaming'. It seems to be used in arguments and debates in many different contexts. Is there a clear explanation?

irc wrote:ISuicidal riding by the cyclist. He was dead centre in the bike lane until the door started opening. At the very least he should have been at the outer edge of the lane. But it should have been a quick shoulder check and move clear of the doorzone as the roadworks finished. One foot outside the lane would have cleared the door and still allowed a safe OT by the taxi.

Victim blaming = holding the victim (of a crime, act, etc.) partly or wholly responsible for his/her misfortune


Let's imagine that rather than being doored the cyclist had hit a child that had walked out between the parked cars. Who is the victim now? Is it OK blaming a cyclist for riding too close to parked cars when someone else comes off worse?

Oh, and the Highway Code states in Rules For Cyclists Rule 67

Leave plenty of room when passing parked vehicles and watch out for doors being opened or pedestrians stepping into your path


So the "victim" I blamed was not complying with the Highway Code - often used as a factor in attributing blame (as per the RTA 1988 S38).

(7)A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the M1Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the M2Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings.
Last edited by irc on 6 Aug 2015, 5:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Vorpal »

But the vicitm was failing to follow a recommendation in the Highway Code, whilst the person opening the door was failing to follow a legal obligation.

I won't deny that the cyclist could very well have avoided the incident. However, if he had hit someone who had stepped out from parked cars, I would agree with you, but that's not what happened, here.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Vorpal wrote:But the vicitm was failing to follow a recommendation in the Highway Code, whilst the person opening the door was failing to follow a legal obligation.

I won't deny that the cyclist could very well have avoided the incident. However, if he had hit someone who had stepped out from parked cars, I would agree with you, but that's not what happened, here.


So it's OK to ride in the doorzone until you injure a child? If a course of action is risky it isn't OK just because you get away with it. That's the speeder's defence.

As my edit above points out - failing to follow the HC can be used to attribute blame.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Bicycler »

We all better put on our helmets and hi-vis then... and make sure all our bikes are equipped with bells :wink:
Last edited by Bicycler on 6 Aug 2015, 6:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by Vorpal »

irc wrote:
Vorpal wrote:But the vicitm was failing to follow a recommendation in the Highway Code, whilst the person opening the door was failing to follow a legal obligation.

I won't deny that the cyclist could very well have avoided the incident. However, if he had hit someone who had stepped out from parked cars, I would agree with you, but that's not what happened, here.


So it's OK to ride in the doorzone until you injure a child? If a course of action is risky it isn't OK just because you get away with it. That's the speeder's defence.

As my edit above points out - failing to follow the HC can be used to attribute blame.

He was riding in a marked cycle lane. If you want to blame someone, blame the idiot who designed it that way.
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Re: Doored cyclist almost run over - good driving?

Post by irc »

Vorpal wrote:[He was riding in a marked cycle lane. If you want to blame someone, blame the idiot who designed it that way.


I'm blaming all three of them. The designer the driver and the cyclist.
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