Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

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ferdinand
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by ferdinand »

rualexander wrote:Horses are prey animals, its in their nature to be spooked by things they're not sure about, not everything can be bred out of animals.


Prey items especially in France, but I didn't see any panic in the TdF :) . Far more spooking from right-on students when I brought horse-meat back.

We are becoming quite horsey round here -w e even have a bridleway with a canter track, and I meet one or two most days. Generally no problems.

And most impressed seeing them shimmy across Pegasus crossings and the mazes each side.

Ferdinand
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661-Pete
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by 661-Pete »

ferdinand wrote:Prey items especially in France....
And in Tesco's :lol:
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CREPELLO
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by CREPELLO »

I would have thought the problem is more the training of the animal rather than the breeding of.
I don't have experience of horse training, although I've seen some informative examples over the years on Countryfile, especially that of army or police horses. It will surely take extra training to get an animal prepared for scary things. Perhaps most horse owners skimp on this aspect of the training.

Considering how poorly a great many dogs are trained, this doesn't surprise me.
Flinders
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by Flinders »

Breeding has a role in temperament. A thoroughbred is on average more highly strung than a lot of other breeds, for example. But there are always exceptions.

Cart horses/heavy breeds bred for driving are built differently to riding horses. They have different proportions. Very, very approximately, they are proportioned for high torque low speed. And they are broader in build, which makes them difficult to ride- the width can cause hip problems in smaller people. A narrower riding horse means a rider can get their leg further round, making the rider more secure and making it easier to communicate with the horse, control its speed, and steer it (this is done by leg movements more than reins, in fact). Horses bred to plough tend to walk with their feet more in a line as they have to cope with walking in furrows, that's not ideal for a riding horse as it goes much faster and is less stable on fast bends.

Heavy horses (plough, draught, etc.) tend when deliberately misbehaving to stop and refuse to go forward (called 'jibbing'). Lighter breeds tend to take off, rear, or buck.

Some ponies (horses below a certain height) are built like smaller versions of cart horses, can carry a lot of weight, and and were used for pack horses/pit ponies etc. Others are built more like riding horses.

Training has a role in behavior, as does rider skill. But the best horse in the world can still, though of course rarely, play up if it is suddenly surprised, and riders do try to be prepared for this. Cyclists should make the effort to understand and allow for it, just as we expect drivers to allow for us suddenly having to move out if there is a pothole, even though cars don't need to.

I linked to this in another thread, please do read it if you haven't already.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files ... aflet.ashx

It urges politeness and consideration on riders as well as us if you read the whole thing, and tries to explain things to those who don't know horses.

And thank you to all cyclists who try to give horses space. It is appreciated, though it may not always be safe to take a hand off the reins to thank you. Riders may nod instead...that's the convention for thanks when riding with other riders.
irc
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by irc »

I'll agree with the lack of training being the issue. In the USA the Amish use horse drawn traps as their transport. The horses use the main roads and don't react to cars at all because they are used to them. I spooked them on my tourer with 4 panniers even approaching head on when they could see me properly. So either they aren't used to bikes or with 4 panniers it didn't look like a bike.

When horses were common on the roads in cities they were used to the hustle and bustle hence were usually OK. Though even then there were deaths from out of control horses. 1589 UK fatalities in 1875 for example.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1218 ... ng__Speed/
Flinders
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by Flinders »

One problem for horses is the same one we have. Some drivers don't want them on the road and behave badly around them.
That makes it difficult to train them not to be scared of traffic.
E.g.
- a 'traffic proof' horse suffers a close overtake from a vehicle blaring its horn. For the rest of that ride it will be jumpy, and it may not be happy to go on the road again next time - it may take some time for it to feel secure again.

-How do you introduce a horse to traffic when you can't be sure not to meet an aggressive driver even on the quietest roads? it isn't easy to train them to it...

If a horse is hit by a car, it may survive, but be very scared of roads in the future.

One of my friends was clipped by a van so close and fast that it broke a heavy stainless steel stirrup in half due to the impact and damaged the rider's ankle. The horse was a very good one in traffic, but the impact terrified it, as you can imagine - the van was inches away from hitting the horse. It bolted but fortunately the rider stayed on and when it stopped it was uninjured.
Some rider friends - and mine are pretty much all older ladies and are all very capable and sensible, have been deliberately driven at by cars and vans, and it isn't unusual for vehicles to blare their horns at horses just to scare them for a bit of fun or for people to throw things.

I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity - if bad/thoughtless/agressive drivers could all be persuaded to drive as well as the vast majority, we'd all be better off.
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CREPELLO
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by CREPELLO »

Flinders wrote:I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity - if bad/thoughtless/agressive drivers could all be persuaded to drive as well as the vast majority, we'd all be better off.

Absolutely agree Flinders.
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661-Pete
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by 661-Pete »

Flinders wrote:I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity - if bad/thoughtless/agressive drivers could all be persuaded to drive as well as the vast majority, we'd all be better off.

+1

I always try to announce "Bike(s) coming" as I approach a horse. In a firm tone of voice, so that the horse can hear it as well as the rider, but not a shout. Horses react well to human voices, that's one thing they're accustomed to.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
pwa
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by pwa »

We have lots of horse riders using the roads around here, and the horses are always steady and under control. The riders are generally fine too. I once attended a seminar on Public Rights of Way, and there were people from the British Horse Society there. Some had stories about bad experiences with cyclists, but on the whole the feeling was that cyclists and horse riders should be supporting each other rather than bickering. We have a lot in common. We love the outdoors and the wind on our faces. We want to get away from car use, for a while at least. And we want (and demand) respect from other road users.
MartinC
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by MartinC »

Flinders wrote:...........................I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity......................................


Well, yes, but I've always been puzzled that my experience is that people towing horse boxes seem to show little consideration for cyclists when overtaking. Horse boxes are normally wider than the towing vehicle and the wheels wider than the box but the drivers seem reluctant to allow for this.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Flinders wrote:... Some drivers don't want them on the road and behave badly around them.....

That is very unfortunate and unpleasant.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
Tacascarow
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by Tacascarow »

MartinC wrote:
Flinders wrote:...........................I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity......................................


Well, yes, but I've always been puzzled that my experience is that people towing horse boxes seem to show little consideration for cyclists when overtaking. Horse boxes are normally wider than the towing vehicle and the wheels wider than the box but the drivers seem reluctant to allow for this.
That has little to do with consideration & nearly everything to do with lack of experience.
I've nearly been taken out by caravans, boat trailers, general car trailers, car transporters & horse boxes.
A separate test to tow a trailer over a certain size & weight should be mandatory IMHO.
pwa
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by pwa »

Tacascarow wrote:
MartinC wrote:
Flinders wrote:...........................I think the risks riders and horses ace are depressingly similar to ours as cyclists, so maybe we need to show solidarity......................................


Well, yes, but I've always been puzzled that my experience is that people towing horse boxes seem to show little consideration for cyclists when overtaking. Horse boxes are normally wider than the towing vehicle and the wheels wider than the box but the drivers seem reluctant to allow for this.
That has little to do with consideration & nearly everything to do with lack of experience.
I've nearly been taken out by caravans, boat trailers, general car trailers, car transporters & horse boxes.
A separate test to tow a trailer over a certain size & weight should be mandatory IMHO.


I understood that drivers passing their tests now are not entitled to tow a trailer. Isn't a separate qualification already required?
MartinC
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by MartinC »

Tacascarow wrote:That has little to do with consideration & nearly everything to do with lack of experience.
I've nearly been taken out by caravans, boat trailers, general car trailers, car transporters & horse boxes.
A separate test to tow a trailer over a certain size & weight should be mandatory IMHO.


Yebbut, not bothering to learn how to do it safely is a lack of consideration in itself. Besides some of the conversations I've had indicate that some of them at least don't consider a too close pass as anything that they need to bother about.
Flinders
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Re: Horses: modern ones selected from what stock?

Post by Flinders »

Tacascarow wrote:That has little to do with consideration & nearly everything to do with lack of experience.
I've nearly been taken out by caravans, boat trailers, general car trailers, car transporters & horse boxes.
A separate test to tow a trailer over a certain size & weight should be mandatory IMHO.


I agree. My (very old) licence entitles me to drive things that a new driver now quite rightly wouldn't be allowed to without more testing. As I have never driven anything but a car, I'd be unhappy about driving a van or a trailer without finding someone to give me lessons first even if legally I could do so.
It's not so much the weight of the trailer in any case, it's the added length, so I think driving any trailer should require some training. (I know of a rider who was involved in an incident with a trailer - her horse got one of the tarp hooks driven right into a bone. It took some time for it to heal.)
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