Pedestrians' view of bells ?

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oneten
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by oneten »

Bicycler wrote:I think we agree.

For me avoiding rubbish farcilities is pragmatic rather than ideological. If they are a better option than the road I'll use them.

It isn't necessarily wrong to allow bikes to use narrow paths like you are showing. I'd probably draw a distinction between existing paths we wish to permit cyclists to use and routes intended for cyclists. Many towpaths and bridleways are similar in width to the path in your picture and can make great leisure routes as long as we are content to ride more slowly and submissively than on the roads. Where such paths are used for gentle leisure rides, where pedestrian usage is low, or where such paths make up a very small part of the journey this is no great problem. Where routes are promoted as cycle routes and used by commuters and utility cyclists as a genuine alternative to roads (or where there is high pedestrian usage) narrow shared use is totally inadequate and confrontation will likely occur

In fact, on sections of NCN routes where cyclists have to negotiate a blind bend or other situations with a potential for danger, there are blue signs encouraging cyclists to use their bell - the rather amusing 'Ding- Dong' signs. No substitute for common sense and courtesy on both sides where walkers & cyclists share though.
MikeF
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by MikeF »

simonineaston wrote:I was thinking about this thorny issue only this morning.
In my experience, operating my ping bell when approaching groups from behind nearly always results in confusion and indecision.
That's maybe because you rang it too late. 8-10 seconds warning should give enough time. At 10-12mph that's around 50yds distance. One of the loudest single ping bells I have is one from Spa - think it was zefal. After a time I found I needed to add some glue to the top well to prevent pinging when going over bumps. However it's still fine and very audible.
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by MikeF »

pwa wrote:I find on lanes horse riders appreciate it if you ping a bell, preferably before you get too close. It gives them time to prepare for you passing. Dog walkers are much the same.
NEVER ring a bell near horses. You could cause a serious accident. Approach horses with caution and cycle appropriately!!!!!
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Always talk to equestrians.
I tend to stop, stand up and talk to them, and the horses...
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Heltor Chasca
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Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by Heltor Chasca »

MikeF wrote:
pwa wrote:I find on lanes horse riders appreciate it if you ping a bell, preferably before you get too close. It gives them time to prepare for you passing. Dog walkers are much the same.
NEVER ring a bell near horses. You could cause a serious accident. Approach horses with caution and cycle appropriately!!!!!


Quite. I live in horse country (and banjo country) and I don't ring or holler. I start a 'quiet human conversation' with the rider from afar so the horse and rider know the score. I like clicking my tongue because I can! Show off me. Then wait for the rider to tell me how best to pass. Always met with social conflab and cheery greetings. Too many riders have come a cropper round here and unfortunately horse riders hurt and hurt bad when they come off. My 13 yo daughter rides horses as well as bikes so I am biased...b

EDIT: Lots of editing! Long day in the hedges today.
pwa
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by pwa »

I know there are valid concerns about the width of shared use paths / tracks, but I don't think that you need to be on a narrow tack to find a bell useful. I use a bell on country lanes when approaching pedestrians from behind, and it is a great way of getting them to move to one side or the other without stress to either of us.
geocycle
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by geocycle »

Elizabeth_S wrote:I guess how effective a bell is depends on the pitch. Older people tend to lose hearing from the top of the range, so if you have a high pitched ping they might not hear your bell, and they might not hear you if you talk if they have more hearing loss. Or a person of any age might have hearing loss and a hearing aid of some kind, which will be directional.
So it is not correct to assume that people are ignoring your bell or voice, they might not be able to hear it.


Yes, that's true but I think the higher frequency penetrates more with other folk. I changed a simple ping bell for one of the lion bell works beauties. It looks wonderful and has a great lower tone but I get a much worse response. Overall though I'm a definite fan of bells on shared paths and get lots of positive comments. The ones that do gear the lion bell seem to like it.
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mjr
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by mjr »

MikeF wrote:NEVER ring a bell near horses. You could cause a serious accident. Approach horses with caution and cycle appropriately!!!!!

Well, ring it well before you get near. If a horse is spooked by a noise from the sort of distance I ring from, then they're probably not here and definitely not on the roads.
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pwa
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by pwa »

mjr wrote:
MikeF wrote:NEVER ring a bell near horses. You could cause a serious accident. Approach horses with caution and cycle appropriately!!!!!

Well, ring it well before you get near. If a horse is spooked by a noise from the sort of distance I ring from, then they're probably not here and definitely not on the roads.


I pass horses a lot, and mjr is spot on with the suggestion that you ring from a good distance back. Ideally 50 metres, with another ping a bit closer if you get no sign of being heard. definitely not close up. I wonder if a single ping is better than a protracted dring, but I may be going mad!
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Mick F
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by Mick F »

mjr wrote:
MikeF wrote:NEVER ring a bell near horses. You could cause a serious accident. Approach horses with caution and cycle appropriately!!!!!

Well, ring it well before you get near. If a horse is spooked by a noise from the sort of distance I ring from, then they're probably not here and definitely not on the roads.
+1

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Bicycler
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by Bicycler »

pwa wrote:I know there are valid concerns about the width of shared use paths / tracks, but I don't think that you need to be on a narrow tack to find a bell useful. I use a bell on country lanes when approaching pedestrians from behind, and it is a great way of getting them to move to one side or the other without stress to either of us.

Oh, yes they are useful and I always have one fitted to my own bikes. My point wasn't just about widths actually, though narrow widths make the situation worse. I don't think shared use is appropriate where there are high numbers of pedestrians and cyclists. Such paths should be segregated. Your narrow country lane is a good analogy. Such roads are fine where pedestrians and vehicles are few. It is no great inconvenience to negotiate one's way through. On roads which see any significant traffic though we segregate the pedestrian traffic from the vehicular traffic and we would think it ridiculous for it to be any other way. It is a nuisance for a cyclist to be slowing and ringing a bell all the time. Likewise it is tiresome whilst walking to be constantly looking round, having one's peace disturbed by bells and having to move to the side.

Or it would be if people had and used bells! Last night I took a walk on a well used local shared use path. Mindful of this thread I counted 36 cyclists who passed me from behind. The number of bells sounded: 0 :roll:
Brucey
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by Brucey »

in recent years I've been doing more utility type journeys on shared use paths, and I have found it desirable to have a bell fitted, and to use it. Not everyone associates the sound of a 'ping' bell with a bicycle as swiftly as they might a 'drrring' bell, and the latter sounds friendlier if it is rung slowly, so that is what I fit to a roadster. However it seems like overkill on a lightweight, so they get pingers instead.

You can buy a reasonable pinger in wilkinsons for £1. Unfortunately it will only easily fit 22.2mm bars... but fortunately if you have a traditional quill stem (GB, Cinelli, etc) it'll go round that instead. They all become somewhat muffled when wet, it seems. I think that there is a gap in the market; if a pinger bell were available that sat under a handlebar, it might be less easily damaged, get (or stay) wet less easily, and not clutter the handlebar so badly.

I am surprised that in this discussion, no-one has yet given an honourable mention to 'clacking'. Probably this is because so many modern brake levers and STIs have been designed so that they don't make enough of a clacking noise. For years my training bike had weinmann brake levers and these made a healthy 'clack' which is by far the best kind of sound to make when approaching a horse from behind; when the horse pricks its ears, it has heard you, and when it has turned its head slightly, it has seen you. The rider of the horse should see both these things (as well as hear the clack) and react accordingly. Be wary of horses with blinkers on; if the horse isn't used to them yet, it may become extremely unsettled by any noise it doesn't recognise coming from behind. I have always supposed that they are often fitted to flightly horses anyway. I have also surmised that the clacking noise might sound a lot like horse's hooves, so is perhaps less intrinsically threatening to them.

Pedestrians can be a bit like horses when it comes to clacking, too... :wink:

cheers
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mjr
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by mjr »

Bicycler wrote:On roads which see any significant traffic though we segregate the pedestrian traffic from the vehicular traffic and we would think it ridiculous for it to be any other way. It is a nuisance for a cyclist to be slowing and ringing a bell all the time. Likewise it is tiresome whilst walking to be constantly looking round, having one's peace disturbed by bells and having to move to the side.

We rarely segregate pedestrians. We build protected space for walking but hey are still allowed on the carriageway if needed or wanted.

I don't mind keeping to one side or watching out behind. It seemed to work well in Bavaria years ago. It's disappointing we seem to have such a problem with it here :(

Or it would be if people had and used bells! Last night I took a walk on a well used local shared use path. Mindful of this thread I counted 36 cyclists who passed me from behind. The number of bells sounded: 0 :roll:

And just to check: it was narrow enough that they couldn't pass safely without? Would you have said before doing a count that belling was normal among cyclists in your area?
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

mjr wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:The German cycling club has a solution for such conflicts, that cyclists should use the roads instead so that we have conflicts with truckers (terrorists) instead of walkers (people).

Is that on the ADFC website?*

But FWIW I think there's no shortage of CTC members who will happily tell you that as soon as he wants to exceed walking pace, little Johnny should ride on the A1 instead of the adjacent cycleway. :roll:



* the statement that cyclists should use the road "to avoid confilcts with pedestrians" was made by with Frau Cibulski of the ADFC in an interview published in the Luebecker Nachrichten.
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GranvilleThomas
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Re: Pedestrians' view of bells ?

Post by GranvilleThomas »

I use a section of route 4 of the NCN on a regular basis here in south Wales (Bedwas to Machen). I fitted a little 'ping' type bell that I had in the spare parts box because of the large number of pedestrians on the path. I used to clack my brake levers before I fitted the bell (Shimano XT flat bar levers from 1992).

I mostly have had a positive response to the bell, with people usually thanking me for alerting them to my presence. However when the weather is warm and sunny, the path can be full of families from the local estate. They seem to follow the same format - man and woman, man with top off, both with lots of tattoos. At least two kids, one in a push chair and the other(s) running around chasing the dog that is off the lead. Dog is usually a terrier of some kind.

When approaching these people from behind, the woman upon hearing the bell usually turns around first, then seeing it's a bike turns back around and they all continue to block the path! Luckily there is a flat grass area either side of the path so I just pass them on that.

When walking down the path myself a lot of bikes pass me at speed without any warning, no bell, no shout, no clacking of the brake levers, nothing - very annoying to say the least and makes me jump out of my skin every time. I think some kind of alert is essential and above all courteous.
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