CTC rides

[cardiac]

I joined my local Sunday club run on the June 28th as I've done many times over the years, and due to warnings not given regarding pot holes, I ended up with a damaged chest wall and lacerated ankle which required stitches all very painful, this results in me missing out on a short camping tour in France next week and several weeks off the bike On top of this the solicitors who are recommended on the CTC. web page didn't even have the decency to phone me back to advise on any claim I may be able to make.

So please when riding in a group always look after the person behind.

Cardiac

[Vorpal]

Sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you heal quickly.

I'm sure that all of us do our best to help each other when riding in a group, but sometimes, it's all but impossible to warn others. I've been in a situation where I needed both hands to control my bike over a rough surface. I normally call out, instead, but that may not be heard by others, especially if it's windy, or there is other traffic.

I'm not blaming you, but, I also don't think I would blame anyone but myself and the state of the roads if I came off in such circumstances.

There are a number of threads on here about making claims to local authorities about pothole damage & accidents. I don't think it is something that solicitors are typically interested in.

[TrevA]

A clubmate was out with our group at the weekend. We were riding quite quickly and encountered a hollow, hump and manhole cover with a 1" lip on it. He was pointing it out to those behind but hit it with only one hand on his bars and came off. He was concussed, with a badly cut nose. Ambulance job - it turns out that he has 2 broken ribs, a broken collar bone and fractured skull (he was wearing a helmet).

By all means give a warning to others about hazards, but don't compromise your own safety whilst doing so.

[horizon]

I don't ride in groups now the children have grown up but surely the best practice is always to be able to see the road ahead within stopping/avoiding distance. I'm bemused by all these group crashes you see. I personally wouldn't rely on the person in front to warn me - by the time he/she has shouted I would be on the pot hole - too late even if they had actually seen it in my path. What is the normally considered safe distance between cyclists on group rides?

[Si]

What is the normally considered safe distance between cyclists on group rides?

Depends on the group.....at least a couple of bike lengths on some, overlapping wheels on others.

My view is that if you are right up someone's 'arris then you are effectively riding blind so you've really got to trust them.

[gaz]

Sorry to hear of your incident, hope you heal quickly. I also hope someone from the local CTC club you were riding with has been in touch to see how you are.

Forum potholing thread will give you info on the highway authority's "Section 58" defence.

Beyond that I can only suggest you continue to seek legal opinion and advice about the validity of any claim against the ride's organisers.

[iviehoff]

I joined my local Sunday club run on the June 28th as I've done many times over the years, and due to warnings not given regarding pot holes, I ended up with a damaged chest wall and lacerated ankle ... the solicitors who are recommended on the CTC. web page didn't even have the decency to phone me back to advise on any claim I may be able to make.

That really is very bad luck. But I think, perhaps, that when you are potentially suggesting that CTC itself is negligent, it would be better to contact a solicitor unconnected to the CTC. He may have felt he had a conflict of interest and may have been unable to advise you.

Sometimes we can make some progress by putting ourselves in someone else's shoes. Suppose someone behind you hit a pothole you failed to warn them of. Would you expect them to be able to sue you for damages? I suspect not. Would you expect them to be able to sue the CTC ride organiser? The CTC ride organiser has organiser's liability insurance so they can at least pay if you can show them to be negligent, so this would probably be the most promising avenue. But why would we think the ride organiser was negligent? For failing to make sure that all ride participants religiously informed others of potholes? Or for letting people ride too close together? Would you want to go on a ride where the rule was that everyone had to ride 10m apart?

My own view would be is that it is essentially your own choice to ride in a position where you couldn't see the road ahead. Whilst it is polite for pothole warnings to be given, they are not obliged to give them. I think any other way of viewing the situation would make it legally impossible to have friendly rides. But I could be wrong. You could ask a solicitor and see if they think you have a good claim, but it would need to be one not connected to the CTC. Whilst I appreciate you are very unhappy about this accident and its consequences, do you really want to sue the CTC ride organiser? What do you think would be the consequences of having the case?

[gaz]

The OP might also take a look at a blog by the Cycling Silk with regard to potholes, group riding and contributory negligence, here (with my thanks to thirdcrank for posting about it previously).

[eileithyia]

Wasn't there a case a few years back, where a similar thing happened, a rider crashed having not received warning of a hazard... tried to sue the ride leaders but it was not successful?

[cardiac]

My reason for posting CTC rides was not to find out if it was possible to make a claim against other riders, just seeking advise on what to do next if anything, if I blame anyone it is the county council for the poor upkeep of the road. The pot hole in question was due to a partial sunken manhole which had been previously poorly repaired. I still think it's very important to warn others of poor road conditions and always advise riders to do this on rides I lead.
I think with the increase in cycling which is good, there many new riders who don't have the cycling etiquette of riding in a group.
Thank you all for your advise.
And remember please look after the rider behind you.

Cardiac

[beardy]

I think with the increase in cycling which is good, there many new riders who don't have the cycling etiquette of riding in a group.

You are probably right there.

As far as I am concerned when I ride in the company of others it is my responsibility to look where I am going and not to ride into the back of others either. Any warning from those in front is a bonus but sometimes I do find the more zealous ones a bit amusing as they point out every tiny road defect, I dont expect somebody to have to take their hands off the bars at a critical moment for my benefit.
In fact I dont expect them to take any responsibility for the person behind, though I could say there was a case of liability if they deliberately lured somebody into a trap.

I have ridden plenty of miles in unofficial groups on Audaxes and in my circles the warnings are saved for special cases, except for those who come from racing clubs. There is a pretty clear set of expectations in such racing clubs but they dont extend to all CTC groups, Audaxers or other riders.

[mjr]

I think with the increase in cycling which is good, there many new riders who don't have the cycling etiquette of riding in a group.

[...] I have ridden plenty of miles in unofficial groups on Audaxes and in my circles the warnings are saved for special cases, except for those who come from racing clubs. There is a pretty clear set of expectations in such racing clubs but they dont extend to all CTC groups, Audaxers or other riders.

I think most groups are pretty clear that we'll try to warn about the worst things, but you shouldn't count on it.

KLWNBUG had new-to-us riders on our one-hour ride last night. Because I was on the front, guiding, I gave a short ride briefing before setting off, despite a negative comment from a more experienced rider. I definitely included the key phrase like "ride as you should if you were on your own". I may also have said "this is not a race and if we get split up by a junction, we'll wait" although that's not on my script.

The crash in the opening post is because of riding too close, not because those in front failed to warn about a pothole. I've some sympathy, as I've suffered minor injury when I think a warning from in front would have avoided it, but the injury was due to drafting more closely/directly than was really safe.

As for the solicitors not calling back - yes, that's poor service. They should at least tell you there's not much chance of claiming off anyone unless the pothole has been reported and left unrepaired.

[Robzere31]

Another example of the blame culture that seems to have taken over.

[Phil Fouracre]

Always interested in these threads. Can never see how it can ever be anyone other than the individuals responsibility. Surely if you ride such that you can't see/avoid obstacles etc you are pushing your luck, whatever you are riding, or driving for that matter