Help settle an argument

[pwa]

That driver's use of the horn was due to tetchiness, a trait much in evidence on this thread. I don't use the car horn very much. I can't remember what it sounds like. But, like some here, I do display tetchiness from time to time and I normally regret it very soon after. We are all human and we all have human failings. The driver was wrong to use the horn there, but I don't see it as a sign that the driver was trying to pass at the pinch point, or that the driver was failing to anticipate the cyclist's overtaking manoeuvre and not delaying their pass. All we really know about the driver is that he / she used the horn inappropriately, and I'm not going to hate them for that.

[robing]

We can't really see the driver's position until after the beep. However, they would have been approaching a pinch point with 2 cyclists, one gaining on the other. So the driver should have held back until well after and anticipated the cyclist overtaking.

[reohn2]

That driver's use of the horn was due to tetchiness, a trait much in evidence on this thread. I don't use the car horn very much. I can't remember what it sounds like. But, like some here, I do display tetchiness from time to time and I normally regret it very soon after. We are all human and we all have human failings. The driver was wrong to use the horn there, but I don't see it as a sign that the driver was trying to pass at the pinch point, or that the driver was failing to anticipate the cyclist's overtaking manoeuvre and not delaying their pass. All we really know about the driver is that he / she used the horn inappropriately, and I'm not going to hate them for that.

And the possible outcome of that inappropriate use of the horn could cause a incident/collision.
Whereas if the driver did nothing but curse under their breath nothing would happen!

[stork]

Even the lorry driver's overtaking was pretty poor. It gets past the trailing cyclist perfectly well, leaving plenty of space, but it then converges on the other cyclist to squeeze through the pinch point. I bet that felt close, for the leading cyclist, and probably also quite alarming. After all, if someone's overtaking you, you're usually aware of them moving further out into the road as they start the manoeuvre, and only moving back towards the edge of the road -- at the earliest -- at the halfway point of the overtake. So when a lorry starts overtaking you and is simultaneously drifting closer and closer to you, at a pinch point, you might well be worried.

Aside from that, the argument above is going round in circles. It seems natural to want to blame someone, and less natural to accept that blame or fault is often shared.

For my money, the lorry driver made one good overtake and one bad one. That bad one may well have legitimised a potential bad overtake in the mind of the driver, who also wrongly used their horn. I also suspect that the driver would have attempted to overtake through the pinch point and was foiled in doing this when the cyclist pulled out, although other explanations are possible. And it looks like the cyclist was careless too. No-one really comes out of it very well.

Maybe we'd have had a shorter, less controversial discussion if the original post had been: Help settle an argument -- if you have a video of yourself making offensive gestures at a driver while you are looking in the opposite direction from your direction of travel, and that video then shows you falling off your bike as a result of this, would the best course of action be (a) post it on the internet, along with your name, for everyone to see and discuss, or (b) nurse your wounds quietly at home and delete the video?

[reohn2]

There was 4ft(1.2m) minimum distance between the truck and the leading cyclist.

[TimP]

A cyclist hating friend of mine shared this video

https://www.facebook.com/SpottedPompey/ ... 0/?fref=nf

Using it as an example of why cyclists are stupid / shouldn't be on the road etc because he moved 'out of the lane'

My reply was that his road positioning was entirely reasonable through the island and the car driver had no right to beep at him.

What's the thoughts of the assembled panel here?

Note I'm not talking about the falling off; which was entirely the cyclists own doing, but was the car driver right to beep?

Oh dear. In this case the cyclist did not look or signal before pulling out. (Highway Code: Mirror, signal, manoeuvre, so on a bike look behind you, signal and manoeuvre.)
The beep is fair in this case as it tells the cyclist he almost caused an accident and to be more careful next time. It wasn't a full lean on the horn in anger act, more of a beware beep.
If a car, bus, lorry, bike or van had pulled out in front of me like that without signalling and causing me to brake (then worry about being rear ended) then I too would hit the horn.
Where I cycle it is common for vehicles to really lean on the horn expecting us to abandon road even when riding solo and neatly near the side of the road. Such motorists do get something as they come past.

Overall we have to remember that just because we are cyclists does not automatically make us right. If we don't remember this then motorists will hate us even more and with justification. We don't need that.

[Bicycler]

For the umpteenth time on this thread I'll repeat that the horn is not a device for instructing others how to behave. It is solely a defensive device to warn others of your presence.

[kwackers]

For the umpteenth time on this thread I'll repeat that the horn is not a device for instructing others how to behave. It is solely a defensive device to warn others of your presence.

I think most commuting cyclists realise that it really means "out of my way Mr Cyclist, I'm coming through", or "I'm displeased with you and am showing my displeasure".
Letting someone know you're there is a single 'pip' and you never hear that anymore...

Thinking about it, this is the reason I dislike the traditional 'tahring' type cycle bell. It smacks a lot of "out of my way" as opposed to the single 'ting' of its replacement that says politely 'excuse me'.

[Bicycler]

Thinking about it, this is the reason I dislike the traditional 'tahring' type cycle bell. It smacks a lot of "out of my way" as opposed to the single 'ting' of its replacement that says politely 'excuse me'.

Funnily enough I had the exact opposite interpretation In particular, the once much-encouraged two tings sound to my ears more of a demand.

Proof perhaps of what we already knew from the other current thread on bells: that there is no consensus on whether to use a bell, nor what type of bell to use and it will not be to everyone's liking whatever noise you make. I guess it comes down to personal preference.

[andycharlton3460]

Pulling out without looking behind.

To be honest, I'm amazed the cyclist has survived as long as he has, and this incident might make him a safer cyclist and keep him alive longer.

BTW, 90% of the time, I'm on the cyclist's side, but not in this case.

Andy

[TonyR]

Pulling out without looking behind.

To be honest, I'm amazed the cyclist has survived as long as he has, and this incident might make him a safer cyclist and keep him alive longer.

BTW, 90% of the time, I'm on the cyclist's side, but not in this case.

Andy

Lets look at it another way. If he had not been a cyclist but in a car, would you expect the car behind him to try to overtake him as he moved out to overtake the cyclist? And if not, why not?

[aspiringcyclist]

Although the cyclist should have looked back, I think, with a proper overtake, the cyclist overtaking shouldn't be an issue.



Also, he was already pulling out while in the pinch point, where a driver definitely shouldn't be overtaking, so again the cyclist's manoeuvre should be irrelevant.

[GrumpyCyclist]

Don't know if this has been mentioned or not, I've just been watching the 'incident' part of the of the video over and over on loop so haven't had time to go through all the replies.

As I read it, the car had probably positioned to pass the cyclists through the pinch point (following the 7.5t through) since the road markings indicate there is room to do just that, and had maybe even started to make their move when camera cyclist swerves across in front of (or maybe nearly into the side of) them. From the relative speeds it looks like the car driver has had to slow down somewhat since the cyclist is pulling away from them, so I'd hazard a guess - and yes, I know that's all it can be - the front of the car wasn't too far off the rear of the cyclist when he swerved across, making the car driver apply their brakes and honk in annoyance. Should the car driver have been attempting to overtake 2 cyclists approaching that pinch point? Possibly not, but the way the road is marked it gives the "impression" that it is safe to do just that. I too think they should have considered the possibility that the cyclist would move out to pass the other one, but if they'd held back from the overtake anyway as a precaution it wouldn't have been an issue whatever the cyclists did. Should the cyclist have looked over his shoulder before moving out? I think he should, but as others have commented he doesn't seem the most experienced of cyclists anyway.

However, I think part of the fault lies in the road markings. There's such a big push for "cycle lanes" that local authorities seem to be throwing them in so they can be seen to be cyclist friendly, even to the extent of putting them where they aren't really suitable. It showed when the 7.5t went through that if that had been a bus it wouldn't have left a lot of room for the cyclists' elbows. There's an argument there that neither cyclist should have been in the cycle lane and should have been protecting themselves by taking the dominant position in the lane (is this taking primary?), but then that leads to abuse that "you should be in the cycle lane you <expletive of your choice>, you shouldn't be out in the traffic!!!" so depending on the nature of the driver, the outcome may have been similar.

Whatever the rights and wrongs are of the incident I came away with just a few thoughts;

1) everyone got to home
2) maybe everyone has learned a little from their experience
3) it's not often you see karma come around so quickly

Yes, I know it's bad of me but the hand gesture and obscenity was overreaction and they do say what goes around comes around. On this occasion it came around a bit quicker than he was probably expecting. And yes, I laughed at the end. I'm a bad grumpy cyclist and I shall beg forgiveness from the Puncture Pixies at bedtime.