Help settle an argument

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kwackers
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:as it's a valid argument in my view the driver was merely warning the cyclist of his presence

Why does the cyclist need warning about his presence? Does the same guy beep at every cyclist he comes across? Do you?

A proper overtake leaving sufficient space doesn't require anything from the motorist he could just tootle past...
Bicycler
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by Bicycler »

danhopgood wrote:So that's 6 wrong's on the cyclist's part to a debatable one for the driver - as it's a valid argument in my view the driver was merely warning the cyclist of his presence. Consideration works both ways - What would it have cost the overtaking cyclist to time his overtake so as to not inconvenience another road user? Very little. Is it inconsiderate not to blindly do your own thing without regard to the rules of the road or others? Yes it is.

Consideration is unilateral. Whether you or I show consideration for others is entirely our own choice. It does not depend on whether they are also considerate. Note that that HC section says to consider others despite their bad behaviour - there is no quid pro quo. The point is that we should not let others' poor behaviour (no matter how poor) become an excuse for a decline in our own. It serves no purpose for us to get angry and it is not our job to teach others lessons.

As I stated above, honking horns at cyclists is a potentially hazardous affair, particularly when dealing with inexperienced or incompetent cyclists as this cyclist may well have been. Bearing in mind the risks, the decision to use a horn needs to be born of absolute necessity, not merely a desire to sound off aggressively.
Last edited by Bicycler on 15 Jun 2015, 6:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
TonyR
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by TonyR »

danhopgood wrote:What would it have cost the overtaking cyclist to time his overtake so as to not inconvenience another road user?


What would it have cost the overtaking driver to time his overtake so as not to inconvenience another road user?

What I do know is that as a cyclist, there is physical effort involved in slowing down then speeding up again whereas for a driver its a small movement of their right foot only.
AlaninWales
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by AlaninWales »

Had I been the driver I would have considered (and probably sounded) the horn in similar circumstances: The cyclist was clearly not paying attention to the traffic behind him and a warning of my presence is entirely appropriate. I would also have been positioned well to the right of the lane (as the car is when the cyclist finally looks around) to give as much space as possible between me and the hazard whilst waiting for a safe opportunity to overtake using the other lane.

Nor would I have stopped. The driver is not involved in the crash any more than (s)he would have been involved had the cyclist dismounted in a more usual fashion.
kwackers
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by kwackers »

AlaninWales wrote:and a warning of my presence is entirely appropriate.

No it isn't.

Suppose the cyclist had panicked? Suppose in their panic they swerved away from the cyclist they were overtaking? Suppose they slammed on and lost control?

What do you know of that cyclist? Can you tell how experienced they are just by looking? Can you tell how old they are? Can you tell how 'compos mentis' they are?

I spent months getting my partner to the point she was moderately happy on the roads rather than the pavements. I wouldn't thank anyone for at best undoing the work I'd done to get her that far and at worst...

"Brakes first" isn't a bad moto. Only a poor driver or a bully needs their horn in those circumstances. Most drivers would do well to practice that.
TonyR
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by TonyR »

AlaninWales wrote:Had I been the driver I would have considered (and probably sounded) the horn in similar circumstances: The cyclist was clearly not paying attention to the traffic behind him and a warning of my presence is entirely appropriate. I would also have been positioned well to the right of the lane (as the car is when the cyclist finally looks around) to give as much space as possible between me and the hazard whilst waiting for a safe opportunity to overtake using the other lane.


If you're not going to overtake until you can comply with the Highway Code you don't need to use your horn. Just follow behind until its safe. Cyclists can generally hear what is going on around them and will know you are there without the need for your horn. As for not paying attention to the traffic behind, you don't know that from the video. They could have had a mirror on their helmet or glasses or one of those ones that mounts on the top tube any of which would have given them a clear view of traffic behind.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by [XAP]Bob »

AlaninWales wrote:Nor would I have stopped. The driver is not involved in the crash any more than (s)he would have been involved had the cyclist dismounted in a more usual fashion.


The driver was very involved in the crash - they were the initiating factor.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
ballibeg
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by ballibeg »

Don't think a court in the land would agree.
kwackers
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by kwackers »

ballibeg wrote:Don't think a court in the land would agree.

The only mitigating factor was that the guy turned round and gave the 'V'

Imagine if he hadn't. You sound your horn, he turns round to look, loses control and crashes.
Supposed he'd been killed, don't you think you'd look a bit foolish trying to defend using the horn when specifically warned against it in the highway code and trying to defend that choice by claiming you didn't like the way he was riding?

Given you can kill someone with impunity these days I wouldn't obviously put money on it but then I wouldn't put myself in that position in the first place.

If the driver had really wanted to warn the cyclist of their presence they'd have done it several seconds earlier, *before* the cyclist started moving out to overtake and whilst still far enough back not to cause alarm. Not at the point the cyclist had almost completed their overtake and from only a few yards back.
ballibeg
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by ballibeg »

You hang onto that opinion, ignore all facts that don't support that opinion and you'll be happy.
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Audax67
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by Audax67 »

Love it. Thread called "Help settle an argument" has reached 6 pp and 86 replies.

Not helping much, is it?
Have we got time for another cuppa?
kwackers
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by kwackers »

ballibeg wrote:You hang onto that opinion, ignore all facts that don't support that opinion and you'll be happy.

What facts?

Fact: A guy on a bike moves out a couple of feet to overtake another vehicle he was coming up on.

Fact: The car behind had plenty of time to consider what was going on, more importantly they should have taken a teeny tiny amount of time to observe and predict.

Fact: The car sounded their horn whilst behind the cyclist and at a point when it was useless. i.e. the cyclist was at the side of the vehicle he was overtaking.

Fact: The motorist has supposedly sat a test and as such has a standard of driving that's legally required in order to satisfy their license conditions.

Fact: The cyclist has no such requirement - for all the driver knows it's a 12 year old with no road sense.


Did I miss anything?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yes, the driver is always right. All hail ballibeg...

The driver was involved in the crash.
I didn't say he necessarily caused it (that would be the extended turn and V sign without competence)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Vantage
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by Vantage »

Audax67 wrote:Love it. Thread called "Help settle an argument" has reached 6 pp and 86 replies.

Not helping much, is it?


Probably because there are a couple 'knobs' (I'm quoting plus it seems ok to insult other forumites despite forum rules or there is favouritism going on) on this forum who will stick up for every cyclist regardless of whether they are in the right or wrong.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
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Vantage
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Re: Help settle an argument

Post by Vantage »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Yes, the driver is always right. All hail ballibeg...

The driver was involved in the crash.
I didn't say he necessarily caused it (that would be the extended turn and V sign without competence)


No he/she didn't.
Maybe he/she should not have beeped, but they were certainly not involved in the crash.
The cyclist didn't look around and give the finger until after the horn and then continued to ride with his eyes off the road for around 3.5 seconds. Too long.
The cyclist baked and ate his own cake.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
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