Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
SO8
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by SO8 »

thirdcrank wrote:It's been suggested that there's been some sort of official study which has been leaked but not published....

....It wouldn't be much of a labour to look at all the investigation reports of these deaths to consider all the possible links to see what common features if any there were beyond the obvious ones which have already been highlighted.

The possibility of digging out the files raises the issue of other crashes where the rider was injured but survived. For obvious reasons, there is generally more publicity surrounding fatal crashes than those where the casualty is gravely injured but survives. In these cases, the difference between death and survival may be as much a combination of luck and the skills of the medical people as the exact cause of the crash. So, if all so-called KSI crashes involving cyclists were looked at it may be that the numbers of male casualties would be found to be higher. To make this clear, I'm not suggesting that men are more likely to survive being run over by a truck than women, just that in this set of events, men have been less unlucky.

That line then raises the countless near misses, "damage only" crashes and the apparently increasing number of injury crashes which are recorded but not investigated.

"When I was a lad" I was knocked off my bike by an overtaking lorry on North Street, Wetherby, when it formed part of the Great North Road AKA the A1. I was uninjured other than minor bumps, but the wheels crushed my rear wheel. It was purely by my good luck that this forum was not spared 20,000+ posts. The police took a report but even in those days it will not have been recorded for the stats.


TfL and Loughborough University looked into all available fatal and serious injury collision files in London from 2008 to 2011 that were investigated by the Met's specialist Serious Collision Investigation unit. This took place in 2013 into 2014 if I remember correctly. The people at Loughborough Uni spent a huge amount of time going through every piece of paper for every collision to see what they could find to see if there was something being missed other than the obvious. They worked with the Met Police and were passionate about what they were doing but to look beyond the 'obvious' issues was not a simple task.

Getting the files together was not as easy as just 'digging them out' and in fact took many months as they were all at different stages in many locations - ongoing, waiting for court hearings, inquests and others completed.

As to any hidden report - I doubt it as I was one of the ones who worked with LU.

Sadly no simple answer that is achievable has been found :(
ferdinand
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by ferdinand »

kwackers wrote:
ferdinand wrote:And I'd also advocate (and some won't like me making the argument) for measures to help cyclists not get ourselves killed. The data (CTC, 2012) shows that a significant proportion - 40% iirc - of cyclists killed on the roads are found to be the authors of their own destruction.

Have you got a link to that? Last time I looked at data on the TRL website the numbers were considerably smaller - more in the order of 10% (iirc).


Thanks for asking. Do you have a link to the TRL later data? There's never enough information on this stuff.

I think the article I got it from is here, but finding anything on the CTC site always requires a Diploma in Googling as there is so much stuff :| :
http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/roger-geffen ... e-to-law-b

Cyclist Deaths Contributory Factors
Cyclist Deaths Contributory Factors


That is a 2012 article referring to data from 2005-7 in a TRL research report, and is Roger Geffen trying to disentangle accident statistics. His suggestion is that the 43% figure in the case of deaths is too high because police are being harsh in their assessments.

There are also graphs of contributory factors by age on there too.

In my own immediate area I can point to cyclists mown down by inattentive drivers, and also one who rode his bike out in front of a train without looking properly.

Ferdinand
Psamathe
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Psamathe »

ferdinand wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
ferdinand wrote:Do men have more opportunities to pick up the habits that make them safer?


Maybe men do have more opportunities to pick up habits that make them safer, but is that really where the solution lies?


I really don't know. As I said, I'm speculating about causes for a possible problem that hasn't been clearly demonstrated to exist (or not) yet.
...

To me this can be looked at from several different perspectives. I suspect there are several ways to address the problem. We can spend time investigating if there is a gender effect, then study as to possible reasons causing the gender effect, then consider ways to address the underlying gender differences.

Or, we can stop these lorries crushing everybody (whatever their gender). Whilst we study if there is a gender effect, the reasons, etc. these lorries will keep killing people. So approach the problem from a different aspect. We (as a society) have and can afford the technology. So pass a few really simple laws requiring that technology.

At the same time, do the investigations into possible gender imbalances, the reasons, etc., but hopefully approaching things from a different perspective might solve the problem.

And whilst it is not a solution, I do question as to the onus being on cyclists to avoid being crushed. I think the onus should be on the lorries not to crush cyclists. That said, of course we [cyclists] should do all we can to protect ourselves. But it is lorries doing the killing, not cyclists.

Ian
kwackers
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by kwackers »

ferdinand wrote:Thanks for asking. Do you have a link to the TRL later data? There's never enough information on this stuff.

Cheers for that.
I had a quick look on the TRL website but they've changed it all and nothing was obvious. I'll take another look when I've a bit more time.
Vorpal
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Vorpal »

ferdinand wrote:And I'd also advocate (and some won't like me making the argument) for measures to help cyclists not get ourselves killed. The data (CTC, 2012) shows that a significant proportion - 40% iirc - of cyclists killed on the roads are found to be the authors of their own destruction.

Ferdinand

The biggest problem with this is that cyclists and lorry drivers both are humans. Humans, even well-trained and experienced humans make errors from time to time. No one should have to pay for an error with his or her life.

In HSE, we are taught that things like training are only partly effective. When the consequences are serious, the best solutions are to either design out the risk, or eliminate exposure. That is to prevent the hazard from killing or seriously injuring someone by mean of design, or to prevent a person from being exposed to the hazard.

If we really want to prevent cyclists from dying in the manner, we need design solutions. Yes, short term, it could help to educate cyclists, but it not a complete solution, and it can never be enough.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
thirdcrank
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by thirdcrank »

SO8 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote: ... Sadly no simple answer that is achievable has been found :(


Having spent some time in the past myself searching for paperwork of every type, I appreciate what you meant in the earlier bit of your post. The succinct bit I have quoted seems to confirm what I was getting at in a long-winded sort of way and broken off by the arrival of my grandchildren so I never reached my point which is that in a system based on casualty reduction, it seems inevitable that the focus will be on the casualties and that leads to the casualties being seen as the problem AKA victim blaming. All that's happening in much of this thread is that a a subset of victims is being blamed. The alternative approach - danger reduction - seems to be beyond the wit of the authorities in the UK.

==============================================
Re the contributory factors from stats booklets. IMO, These are never much good at the best of times and as the "author of their own misfortune" line is based on survivors' evidence, it's particularly unhelpful in analysing fatal crashes.. A couple of years ago somebody (snibgo?) linked to a critique of police accident stats in the relevant annual report which explained in detail the shortcomings of the info. IIRC, it politely pointed out the shortcomings balanced by the benefits (the latter being "it's all we've got or are likely to get.")
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Si
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Si »

ferdinand wrote:I think the article I got it from is here, but finding anything on the CTC site always requires a Diploma in Googling as there is so much stuff :| :
http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/roger-geffen ... e-to-law-b

cyclist-deaths-contributory-factors.gif



Is that graph made up of crashes that actually involved two or more parties or does it include crashes where the cyclist managed to come off by themselves? In which case the data isn't as straight forward as it might look as saying "in all crashes it was the cyclists' fault x% of the time" is different to "in crashes between a cyclist and motor vehicle it was the cyclists' fault x% of the time".
TonyR
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by TonyR »

Vorpal wrote:The biggest problem with this is that cyclists and lorry drivers both are humans. Humans, even well-trained and experienced humans make errors from time to time. No one should have to pay for an error with his or her life.

In HSE, we are taught that things like training are only partly effective. When the consequences are serious, the best solutions are to either design out the risk, or eliminate exposure. That is to prevent the hazard from killing or seriously injuring someone by mean of design, or to prevent a person from being exposed to the hazard.

If we really want to prevent cyclists from dying in the manner, we need design solutions. Yes, short term, it could help to educate cyclists, but it not a complete solution, and it can never be enough.


HSE is a big part of the problem. If the HGVs were killing people on a work site the HSE would be all over them about work practices, training, safeguards etc. but because it happens on the public roads, they couldn't care less. A good start would be to mandate HSE to treat all work related driving incidents on the roads the same as if they had occurred on a work site.
Vorpal
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Vorpal »

Even in single vehicle accidents; that is, no motor vehicle involved when a cyclist crashes, that doesn't necessarily make the cyclists 'the authors of their own destruction'. One of the studies done by Rune Elvik at the the Transportøkonomisk institutt found that infrastructure can make a big difference in accident rates; even that simple things like inspecting cycle paths on a regular basis and repairing any problems found can reduce injury accident rates by 5%.

Also, it is unknown how many crashes involving a cyclist and no other vehicles were caused by another vehicle that left no evidence of involvement (e.g. a very close pass).
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Vorpal
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Vorpal »

TonyR wrote:HSE is a big part of the problem. If the HGVs were killing people on a work site the HSE would be all over them about work practices, training, safeguards etc. but because it happens on the public roads, they couldn't care less. A good start would be to mandate HSE to treat all work related driving incidents on the roads the same as if they had occurred on a work site.


Sorry, I should have been clearer... I should have said 'health and safety management principles teach us...' or something like that. I meant HSE = health, safety, and the environment, as opposed to HSE = Health and Safety Executive.

But, I agree. I have said something similar on here in discussion of previous incidents.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
beardy
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by beardy »

The Health and Safety Executive agree with both of you too.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/roadsafety/experi ... affic1.pdf

Well at least they agree that it is a problem which they should be involved in solving, rather than it is their fault for not doing so!
toomsie
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by toomsie »

beardy wrote:
40% iirc - of cyclists killed on the roads are found to be the authors of their own destruction.


I wonder if in any other aspect of life the blame would go to the person who fell foul of heavy machinery just for failing to act perfectly in its presence? Especially when the machinery was under the control of another.


I like to believe that what a cyclist 100 control of his safety.
I don't like to believe that 60% is down to luck. Is it a cyclist
fault of they do not practice Bikebility, including the lack of
ability to keep up with traffic at roundabouts.
kwackers
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by kwackers »

toomsie wrote: including the lack of ability to keep up with traffic at roundabouts.

Cyclists have to be able to pace cars now!? What next, 4 wheels and a steel shell? ;)
Vorpal
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by Vorpal »

toomsie wrote:I like to believe that what a cyclist 100 control of his safety.
I don't like to believe that 60% is down to luck. Is it a cyclist
fault of they do not practice Bikebility, including the lack of
ability to keep up with traffic at roundabouts.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that every cyclist is 100% in control of his / her own safety?

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that 60% (of anything!) is down to luck.

Bikeability doesn't require anyone to 'keep up with traffic' at roundabouts or otherwise. It can be quite useful to be able to do so, and their are some roundabouts that I would avoid if I didn't feel capable of doing so, but this is a personal risk assessment, not a requirement of Bikeability.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
beardy
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Re: Are Female Cyclist more at risk

Post by beardy »

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that 60% (of anything!) is down to luck.


I think that I have done everything I can with respect to my own safety and I have now reached the position where when I go out on my bike it is pretty much down to luck whether or not I return intact.

There are things you can control and things you can not control, no matter how many manuals you have swallowed or hundreds of thousands of miles of road experience that you have gained.

There are plenty of dead people just as skilled as me but not as lucky.
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