Are Female Cyclist more at risk

[Vorpal]

This has been discussed before on this forum. But all we know is that various media have reported that TfL has such a report.

As far as I know, no one has actually seen such a report.

Since a number of media outlets, such as theGuardian have quoted from the "leaked" report I think we can assume some at least outside TfL have seen the report and it exists.

Can we? Has anyone reported seeing it? Did all of the media reports have the same source? Do the media always report everything accurately?

In 2007, TfL did publish a survey of red light jumping behaviour. Maybe this theory was discussed internally amongst TfL employees involved. Maybe someone went to the media with that. Maybe that person even received some money from the various media companies(?).

There's your 'unpublished TfL report'. So when the real report came out a couple of months later, it looked like a belated reaction, rather than the simple survey that it was always meant to be.

This is speculation on my part, but I've seen things like this happen before. The media are out to make money; even the grauniad likes it own type of sensationalism. They are not in business to provide facts.

[Vorpal]

Spacial Awareness - what do we mean by this? Do we mean some innate ability to 'know' what is all around you in an instant without making any concious effort? Or do we mean actually making the effort to open your eyes and look at what is around you, and then think about it?

It's more the latter than the first. Spatial awareness is the understanding of objects, and their organisation in space around oneself. When scientists analyse it, they often use 3D puzzles, but they also use things like asking people to look at a picture or object, then visualise rotating it. They are then asked to identify the correct result in another picture or object.

There are some sort of standard tests for this sort of thing. There are also studies that address spatial awareness during movement, training for spatial awareness and things like that.

The main differences in performance between men and women can sort of be summarized:
-in western culture, men perform better (with statistical sigifcance) than women on spatial awareness tests, both stationary and moving
-the standard tests are somewhat culturally biased to allow men to perform better
-when the time element is removed from most standard tests, there is no difference in performance
-one study (linked in one of my previous posts) found that in a matrilineal culture there was no difference between men and women in their ability to solve 3D puzzles

[beardy]

-the standard tests are somewhat culturally biased to allow men to perform better

While I am sure that you are right that the tests are culturally skewed, this choice of words gives the impression that it was done deliberately to "fix" the results. Which I dont agree with, other than fitting in with the cultural expectation but that isnt deliberate.

[kwackers]

-when the time element is removed from most standard tests, there is no difference in performance
-one study (linked in one of my previous posts) found that in a matrilineal culture there was no difference between men and women in their ability to solve 3D puzzles

Am I right in thinking that when time is factored back in the 2nd point no longer stands?

Most of the tests for spatial awareness I've seen (that men tend to excel at) have time based elements. This would make sense if men were the primary hunters in prehistoric society since spatial awareness by itself isn't much use unless you can 'solve' the problem before your prey buggers off.

If that were true ordinary cycling probably doesn't favour either sex. But what about in an emergency? Would a bloke generate an 'exit' strategy quicker?
Knowing how often men and women are put in danger and how often it turns out badly might give you some insight into that issue.

[Vorpal]

-when the time element is removed from most standard tests, there is no difference in performance
-one study (linked in one of my previous posts) found that in a matrilineal culture there was no difference between men and women in their ability to solve 3D puzzles

Am I right in thinking that when time is factored back in the 2nd point no longer stands?

Time was included in the tests in point 2. To summarise the study...

There are two related and similar cultures in India where one is matrilineal and the other is patrilineal. Members of both cultures were given the same 3D puzzles to solve, across different villages, genders, ages, etc. In the Patrilineal culture, men solved the puzzles 36% faster. In the matrilineal culture there was no significant difference in the time it took for men and women to solve the puzzles.

[Vorpal]

-the standard tests are somewhat culturally biased to allow men to perform better

While I am sure that you are right that the tests are culturally skewed, this choice of words gives the impression that it was done deliberately to "fix" the results. Which I dont agree with, other than fitting in with the cultural expectation but that isnt deliberate.

Sorry. I didn't mean it to sound deliberate. The bias is only there as a result of cultural bias.

[kwackers]

There are two related and similar cultures in India where one is matrilineal and the other is patrilineal. Members of both cultures were given the same 3D puzzles to solve, across different villages, genders, ages, etc. In the Patrilineal culture, men solved the puzzles 36% faster. In the matrilineal culture there was no significant difference in the time it took for men and women to solve the puzzles.

More studies needed I guess.

I'd love to know what makes men faster in the patrilineal culture? With that in mind why aren't women faster in the matrilineal culture?

Fascinating stuff though. Looks like another preconception bites the dust (along with women 'multi-tasking' ).

[nez]

I'm sorry but women are miles better at multi tasking than men - that's just something you can observe. They're also wired up better for language. Watch small children - the girls are much more language aware.

[Vorpal]

I'd love to know what makes men faster in the patrilineal culture? With that in mind why aren't women faster in the matrilineal culture?

They found that about 1/3rd of the difference could be accounted for by education. They theorised that the remaining 2/3rds was down to the nuturing of cognitive abilities.

[beardy]

I think that there are two main things that keep me from getting underneath a left turning lorry.

I am assertive enough that if I am there first, I dont leave space for them to come alongside.

I am cautious enough that I dont go up the inside of a lorry that has any chance of starting to move.

I am much more willing to believe that women are less assertive than men than to believe that they are less cautious. Though women cycling in London are a self selecting group (as are the men) so they may well show atypical behaviour and then the subset of them who have been killed may have been showing even more atypical behaviour.

I still feel it is more likely that it is the lack of assertion as you have to be very assertive against this sort of driving.

[Si]

I am assertive enough that if I am there first, I dont leave space for them to come alongside.
I am cautious enough that I dont go up the inside of a lorry that has any chance of starting to move.

This is the bit that doesn't always work out correctly in terms of men's vs women's cycling for me. Women are vastly more likely to do bikeability than men - for every 8 women we get, we get one man. The actions that you describe should be drummed into people on bikeability lessons. Thus women, in general, ought to be more likely to act this way than men.

[beardy]

Is it possible that we are looking at this problem from the wrong direction?

It is the absolute number of deaths of women which is higher than that for men, despite the fact that men outnumber women significantly cycling on the roads.

Even if we were to take sporty-enthusiast-cyclists as a separate risk level to less-interested-commuters as the former may be more likely to ride out of the gutter. Do not men still outnumber women in the commuter class?

It could be that the reason why more women cyclists die is because of how the HGV drivers react to them. They may be subconsciously classing them as too slow to need any room or just as less of a threat if annoyed by standard bad driving (which they dont expect to injure the cyclist).

[beardy]

I am assertive enough that if I am there first, I dont leave space for them to come alongside.
I am cautious enough that I dont go up the inside of a lorry that has any chance of starting to move.

This is the bit that doesn't always work out correctly in terms of men's vs women's cycling for me. Women are vastly more likely to do bikeability than men - for every 8 women we get, we get one man. The actions that you describe should be drummed into people on bikeability lessons. Thus women, in general, ought to be more likely to act this way than men.

No because Bikeability is not the only or even major influence on peoples' riding position.

I wonder if it is even a significant influence on the general cycling population, I dont know anybody (outside of this forum) who has undertaken a course.

[TonyR]

This is the bit that doesn't always work out correctly in terms of men's vs women's cycling for me. Women are vastly more likely to do bikeability than men - for every 8 women we get, we get one man. The actions that you describe should be drummed into people on bikeability lessons. Thus women, in general, ought to be more likely to act this way than men.

Isn't that a further indication that women are more cautious than men?

And how many women in the female cycling population out there has Bkeability actually reached. I would be surprised if any of this years victims had been on a Bikeability course. Half a million cycle journeys a day in London; statistically that means over 100,000 female cycle journeys a day. How many women cyclists had Bikeability trained in London do you think? I strongly support Bikeability (apart from its helmet fixation) but there needs to be a way to get the message out there much more widely if we are to have any real impact on the outcomes.

[axel_knutt]

There are two related and similar cultures in India where one is matrilineal and the other is patrilineal. Members of both cultures were given the same 3D puzzles to solve, across different villages, genders, ages, etc. In the Patrilineal culture, men solved the puzzles 36% faster. In the matrilineal culture there was no significant difference in the time it took for men and women to solve the puzzles.

This argument assumes that the patrilineal society is male biased, the matrilineal is neutral, and there is no gender difference in SA. Another possibility is that mat and pat societies are both biased, and that an SA gender difference adds to the pat bias, and cancels out the mat bias.

It could be that the reason why more women cyclists die is because of how the HGV drivers react to them.

But they don't, the casualty rate is higher among males.

"even when allowing for greater exposure, the males are somewhat over-represented, particularly among fatal casualties"

Knowles et al: Collisions involving pedal cyclists on Britain's roads: establishing the causes. TRL PPR445 2009.

Even random data exhibit runs, and when they do, people invariably think they've found something non-random. Tossing a coin produces long runs of consecutive heads and tails, it wouldn't be random if it didn't. The brain is programmed to look for patterns, and it's so good at it that it even finds patterns where none exist, like in the clouds or the flames of a fire, or cancer clusters around power stations, or cyclist deaths. You can even find your birthday in the digits of pi if you look hard enough. There's a section on the subject here.