With double give ways who gives way?

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Psamathe
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by Psamathe »

stork wrote:I'd also speak to the highway authority .... And ask for accident stats in case there are any. It is possible that there is a degree of negligence on the part of the highway authority, and this possibility is higher if they failed to do any safety audit or if they ignored advice from such an audit (or from a consultee if they consulted on the scheme).


Sometimes you can find out about accidents from http://www.crashmap.co.uk.

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iviehoff
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by iviehoff »

My experience of using segregated cycle paths is that you can't rely on cars stopping for you even when they ought to. The only safe approach to junctions is "stay alive", even when you have technical priority.

I think that the junction design here is terrible. But you can understand that someone thought that the cyclist needs to think "stay alive", so put in the give way as a warning, even when the car should give way, because in reality too many don't. But the practical reality of what they have is terrible, in effect exonerating the car hitting the bike, which is wrong.
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RickH
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by RickH »

Flinders wrote:You can't have a system where both have to give way to the other regardless, they'd still both be there now.

Here's one (Google Streetview), no cycle lanes involved, just a give way at each of the 4 arms of a crossroads. It's a bit like a half hearted attempt at a US style 4-way stop. Basically nobody has prority so you have to carefully (I hope) negotiate with other traffic.

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Vorpal
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by Vorpal »

Maybe there is a local CTC Right to Representative who is familiar with the junction?

http://www.ctc.org.uk/local-campaigners/map
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iviehoff
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by iviehoff »

Flinders wrote:That's pretty ridiculous. You can't have a system where both have to give way to the other regardless, they'd still both be there now.

Every junction of at least 4 arms, controlled by give way signs (ie not a roundabout or traffic lights) has a minimum of 2 arms with give way signs. So the situation of 2 vehicles arriving at a junction, both seeing give way signs, is actually very common. In the typical cross-road situation, most often these are facing each other. But there are also junctions where the route with priority is two adjacent arms, and the other two adjacent arms both have give way signs. The latter are typically rather dangerous junctions, as we have less idea how to behave at them. That is similar to the present situation, which is part of why it is poor junction design.
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honesty
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by honesty »

If they can dream of it, they generally will do it on British roads. Here's one that was a favourite for driving tests in Hinkley - https://goo.gl/maps/3e3rI 4 way road junction with no road markings whatsoever!
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

mjr wrote:Awww and we so nearly got to two pages before someone posted an out of touch comment about staying on the road. I'm sure that would help because it's not like any motorist ever pulls out of a side road across a give way line and into a bike :roll:

No one said it was impossible, just less likely compared to the pictured two way roadside cycle track (which seems fairly self-evident IMO). I think even the dutch view two way roadside cycle tracks as a compromise of convenience vs safety (and safety at junction relies on the motorists behaviour which segregation was supposed to be protecting the cyclist from....)..

NB I hate these narrow two way roadside cycle ways, so do not ask for them on my behalf.

I hate being confined by kerbs on a narrow path with oncoming cyclists and overcomplicated junctions requiring much vigilence. Also, as a philosophical aside, why segregate cyclists off the public road network: if the problem is motor vehicles then give them the choice of a segregated special motor vehicle road or heavily enforced low speed on a public road.
For roadside cycle ways, Single way with flow seems best for the UK IMO.

Sorry for slight drift but I feel I should dissuade campaigners from invoking such things (and mocking dissenters).

EDIT I have started a new thread to avoid thread drift
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96894
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mjr
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by mjr »

SA_SA_SA wrote:
mjr wrote:Awww and we so nearly got to two pages before someone posted an out of touch comment about staying on the road. I'm sure that would help because it's not like any motorist ever pulls out of a side road across a give way line and into a bike :roll:

No one said it was impossible, just less likely compared to the pictured two way roadside cycle track (which seems fairly self-evident IMO).

Are you sure? Street view makes it look like a pretty nasty fast sweeping exit curve and I suspect any motorist approaching that junction is going to be looking so far down the dual-carriageway that many will look right through and fail to see a bike on the A56 carriageway too, plus such a rider will feel under more pressure not to slow or stop if the motorist looks like they're going to fail to give way.

EDIT: I just searched for collision reports: nine cycle-involved collisions very near that junction http://www.cyclestreets.net/collisions/ ... clists=Yes (all slight, happily) and AIUI 6 motorists primarily to blame, of which 6 cyclists that were on the carriageway. (3 cyclists with primary blame, of which 2 were on the carriageway.) Without knowing proportions of riders on carriageway and cycleway, it's hard to say much other than noting that collisions have happened on the carriageway there too.

In general, that area looks like a bit of an uncoordinated dog's dinner with no real plan for how traffic should flow, but maybe it's a work in progress... I've not ridden that particular bit of Manchester and I think I'm glad :)
Also, as a philosophical aside, why segregate cyclists off the public road network

Why indeed? I don't think anyone is doing that. The road network is not only the carriageways, but cycleways and footways too, plus the carriageway should remain available for cycling as needed.

Sorry for slight drift but I feel I should dissuade campaigners from invoking such things (and mocking dissenters).

I wasn't mocking, but rolling my eyes despairingly at yet another instance of someone apparently blaming a crash victim for using a marked cycleway instead of the carriageway.

I've addressed the other points on the new topic.
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AlaninWales
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by AlaninWales »

The design in the second PDF here https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/cityconnect-youll-get-what-youre-given/ (CityConnect's statement) looks similar? Apparently from the (old) London Cycling Design Standards 2005 edition.
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mjr
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by mjr »

mjr wrote:I have seen this sort of layout and variations on it. One way it has arisen is when a highway authority designs a cycle lane or track across a private minor road, their safety auditors chicken out and demand the cycle lane (incorrectly IMO) gets give-ways painted on it and then the private road owner paints give-way markings inside their boundary (which usually aren't there previously).

Here's the nasty example from the A148 Hardwick Road King's Lynn which was created by something like the above process, with the council adding give-ways contrary to policy and then the private road owner adding a give-way too.

As recently as 2011 this had the usual Norfolk white-edge-line layout which you might be able to see in https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.74281 ... e0!6m1!1e1
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Evil/Bad/Wrong 4-sided Give Way markings on cycle path along the A148 Hardwick Road King's Lynn
Evil/Bad/Wrong 4-sided Give Way markings on cycle path along the A148 Hardwick Road King's Lynn
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toomsie
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Re: With double give ways who gives way?

Post by toomsie »

MartinC wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:I'd look to sue the highways agency who painted such a ridiculous arrangement of lines on the road.


Agreed. It would be useful to us all if both parties sued the agency that's responsible for this road layout.


If the bike lane was a road with cars on it, It would still be unclear who has priority. It aint no T junction.
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