Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happy

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Bicycler »

On a vaguely related note I wonder how much children's perception of the dangers of cycling are informed by the impression they get from adults, including (but not limited to) the adults they ride with. Aren't their opinions often merely our own or others' repeated back to us?

Admin, I remembered a post of yours from another thread (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=33250&p=789511&hilit=children#p789511) that surprised me a little at the time for the suggestion that children wouldn't be permitted to cycle along lanes until they reached adulthood:
admin wrote:Part of the problem with taking children on road bike rides (we have 8-year-old twins who are accomplished cyclists) is the lack of places to take them. Note that I'm talking about "road" cycling, not MTB riding.

I'm reasonably happy riding amongst motor vehicles on my own, I have experience of the things that can go wrong and trust my instinct to get myself out of danger, but I don't trust motor vehicles around my children. I know that statistically it's safe, but that doesn't diminish the strong fear of seeing my own child being run over. So we only go cycling with trailer bikes, or riding on the pavements illegally and inefficiently to one of the few motor-traffic-free cycleways. No chance of taking them on their own bikes to see the lovely lanes of West Sussex, sadly. Perhaps when they're 18 we'll feel more comfortable riding with them there?

Is it possible that your risk aversion is influencing your children's perceptions of the dangers of cycling?
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

Bicycler wrote:Is it possible that your risk aversion is influencing your children's perceptions of the dangers of cycling?


Its not just cycling. Many parents seem to be quite happy to see their children cooped up inside dying from inactivity and obesity.
pwa
Posts: 17368
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by pwa »

In my view any parent who thinks their children will one day cycle on the roads has a duty to make sure they know how to do it. To leave them to find out for themselves how to do it is negligent. It is putting our children at risk. And a child, these days, stops being a child long before 18, so that is leaving it too late. My children have been riding on our local (fairly quiet) roads since they were about 7.

But busy urban roads, at peak times, are not a great venue for cycle training. Quiet roads are the right place to get kids up and going. They need to meet traffic to learn how to deal with it, but not in the frenzy of a busy road at school run time.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by mjr »

The fat commuter wrote:
TonyR wrote:RRCGB2013. Fatalities per bn journey person km 2003-12. Cyclists 27. Pedestrians 31.

Sorry to be picky here but you stated 'on the pavement'. The above stats are pedestrians in general - which can be people crossing the road.

Page 51 of http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/do ... london.pdf breaks them down for Greater London 2010 as 4394 crossing, 809 masked (which I guess means we're not sure), 329 on footpath/verge, 11 on refuge, 21 in centre carriageway, 425 in carriageway not crossing. So even if we allocate all non-crossing ones to the footpath (assuming people are only in carriageway not crossing because they had to step off the footpath), it's still about 3:1 crossing:not ratio. Therefore, assuming London is representative (ha!), there would be roughly 8 pedestrian-on-footpath fatalities per bn journey person km 2003-12.

I feel this is unrealistic in many ways, not least that you need to cross the road on most journeys and so the bare RRCGB figure is probably a better estimate. People have it at least as bad walking as cycling. We need Road Justice and Vision Zero and space4cycling.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

mjr wrote:I feel this is unrealistic in many ways, not least that you need to cross the road on most journeys and so the bare RRCGB figure is probably a better estimate.


Indeed. Walking on an uninterrupted pavement or cycling on an uninterrupted road are pretty safe. For both its at junctions that all the problems happen and as most journeys cannot be completed without some junctions in it its realistic to use the figures that include junctions i.e. RRCGB. Of course on the pavement you have many more junctions than on the road because every drive and entrance and every side road is a junction. On the quarter mile of pavement to one local primary school I count 40 of them but only one for a cyclist on the road which has priority.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by mjr »

TonyR wrote:Of course on the pavement you have many more junctions than on the road because every drive and entrance and every side road is a junction. On the quarter mile of pavement to one local primary school I count 40 of them but only one for a cyclist on the road which has priority.

Ooh, careful there: the drives and entrances are junctions with the road too (although most motorists treat that with more care than the junction with the pavement - self-interest?), and most casualties at those junctions are in the smaller not-crossing-the-carriageway part of the casualty figures.

Of course, I feel that great care should be taken designing any junction and they should be avoided in cycleway designs if possible (because any junction is a source of danger), but both relatively few and disproportionately many are injured on drive/entrance junctions, if you see what I mean. Side roads are a different kettle of much more dangerous fish.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1514
Joined: 14 Dec 2006, 8:27pm
Location: Lancing, West Sussex
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by admin »

Bicycler wrote:On a vaguely related note I wonder how much children's perception of the dangers of cycling are informed by the impression they get from adults, including (but not limited to) the adults they ride with.


I've seriously considered this. When a car comes too close, I sometimes shout "Oy!" to let them know I'm not happy with their driving. This might mean the twins feel more at danger than if I quietly let the dangerous passing go without comment. But I think in fact the opposite is true: they used to feel safe because I was taking them on the bike and they put their faith in my confidence. Now they're growing up they're starting to take more responsibility for themselves, and they're thinking for themselves much more.

We've also had long discussions about cycling and safety, and how statistically it's as safe as walking. They're not four year olds any more, they're nearly ten, and learning about algebra and grammar in school.

Bicycler wrote:Is it possible that your risk aversion is influencing your children's perceptions of the dangers of cycling?


I don't think so, as we've managed to cycle quite happily to and from school for six years. We've cycled perhaps 180 days per year, and 2.5 miles per day with the twins on board, so that's 2,700 miles just on this route. I don't think we're giving up too easily, and in fact I've tried hard to keep going, to "lead by example" in the hope that others might cycle to school too.

I have tens of thousands of miles of cycling experience, including cycling daily on a 70mph dual carriageway on my Windcheetah recumbent to and from work for 14 years or so. Having said that, being responsible for my own safety on the road and being responsible for the safety and comfort of my children are two quite different things.

I know, logically, that our bike ride to school is statistically safe, but if it feels like we're about to be hit by an inattentive or impatient motorist the statistics are irrelevant. We've put up with this for six years, but the situation has changed in two ways: motorist behaviour has got steadily worse, and the children have become more aware of what's going on.

Now we walk, and it's massively more pleasant. For almost the entire route we have our own "segregated" footway, and there's even a dedicated pedestrian bridge over the A27 so we don't need to stop and wait for the pedestrian crossing which has cars ignoring the stop lights quite often. We have to cross the road six times, of which two times are on fairly busy local 30mph roads, but we know how to cross when there are no cars coming, so this is not dangerous and it's not stressful. We can walk side-by-side and chat, and we don't have to keep 100% aware of motorists approaching from behind or from the side.

UK roads are increasingly unpleasant, if not downright frightening, to cycle on. If cycling is to return as an efficient mode of local transport, we have to build Dutch-style cycleways. The good news is that we're actually starting to do that, in places like London and Brighton. Perhaps my grandchildren will cycle to school in a stress-free and safe manner :)
pwa
Posts: 17368
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by pwa »

I think there is a distinction to be made between urban and rural roads. Cities and larger towns can be unpleasant for cycling, but small towns and villages tend to be much better for road cycling. I live in a village with small / medium sized towns a few miles away, and I have no shortage of quiet roads suitable for family cycling. The lanes do have cars, but they are few in number and are not travelling too fast, except, possibly, on the arterial B-roads. Horse riders also seem happy to use the lanes. A child on a bike, usually with an adult, is a common sight on the minor roads, and I have rarely seen a driver pass too close or too fast. Perhaps (and this is my point) we have a culture of acceptance and tolerance between road users that comes from familiarity. When driving on these lanes we expect there to be a tractor / horse / sheep / cyclist / pedestrian around the corner, because that is what we normally find. Whether such a culture could be established in a large town or city, I don't know. But it does seem to work pretty well here.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:I think there is a distinction to be made between urban and rural roads. Cities and larger towns can be unpleasant for cycling, but small towns and villages tend to be much better for road cycling. I live in a village with small / medium sized towns a few miles away, and I have no shortage of quiet roads suitable for family cycling. The lanes do have cars, but they are few in number and are not travelling too fast, except, possibly, on the arterial B-roads. Horse riders also seem happy to use the lanes. A child on a bike, usually with an adult, is a common sight on the minor roads, and I have rarely seen a driver pass too close or too fast. Perhaps (and this is my point) we have a culture of acceptance and tolerance between road users that comes from familiarity. When driving on these lanes we expect there to be a tractor / horse / sheep / cyclist / pedestrian around the corner, because that is what we normally find. Whether such a culture could be established in a large town or city, I don't know. But it does seem to work pretty well here.


I wish it were so where I live,downright aggression and intimidation is a regular every ride occurrence,from a small though significant number of motorists and IME,over the last 5 to 10 years has got worse.
So much so that I do at times feel frightened for my well being,this has caused me to change routes and not ride at certain times of day unless necessary.
Up until a few weeks ago I'd never been hit by a car,I'd had some near misses but due to my attentiveness managed to avoid contact,but when a driver overtakes so close as to clip my right hand with the nearside mirror,and a resultant two finger salute from the driver who didn't stop,I begin to think things are getting serious.
Add to that a police force unwilling or incapable of responding to reports of such behaviour and similar reports to them of threats of violence toward me things are even worse.
I've formed an opinion that the authorities and politrickians pay lip service to cycling whilst doing little to prevent such problems,whilst building disgraceful cycling facilities to make it look as if something is being done.
I spite of that,cycling is growing as both sport and utility,I optimistically think maybe a critical mass will be reached and hopefully cycling will be viewed and as well received as it is in other northern European countries.
But with promises of even more cut backs after Thursday's election I won't be holding my breath.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
ed123
Posts: 22
Joined: 8 Jan 2013, 10:24am

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by ed123 »

A really sad post.

Our kids cycle to school with my wife several times a week. The littlest is 6 and is on the pavement. But he's also been on the back of one of our tandems a lot. It is about 1.5 miles in Liverpool one road is quite busy but with mostly polite and courteous drivers.

I think your experiences are a really sad reflection on the UK.

Advice about Go-pros, water pistols and other methods of 'dealing' with drivers is fine as an exercise of fantasy but won't help you or anyone else. Antagonising drivers won't stop you getting killed and might make for a very unpleasant confrontation- or worse.

My advice is:

KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by old_windbag »

I've read the posts here and it is a sad reflection on our society.... It'll take a lot to change the "car is king" attitude we've cultivated. I live in a rural area but schools are only 1-1.5 miles away..... no children walk or cycle to school they all get taken by car. It beggars belief to see it like a mini rush hour, unfortunately the parents always state roads being unsafe for kid's ( middle years not toddlers ). Some of my close calls on the bike have been passing the local school with parents pulling out without looking in their mirrors etc so their argument is weak. My thoughts as a compromise solution to avoiding road use but having a fit and healthy commute to school would be a scooter as in link below:-

http://www.micro-scooters.co.uk/scooters-model-maxi-micro-ages-6-12/maxi-micro-4in1-luggage-scooter-trainers.html

Forget the price etc theres many others, it's the principle with ability to carry school backpack etc and make for fast scoot to school with other friends... your post mentioned some already doing this. It bridges the gap between the bike on road and the slower walk to school if felt too long. Its comes down to if they like that mode of travel but it looks quite efficient.
ferdinand
Posts: 376
Joined: 31 Oct 2014, 6:59pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by ferdinand »

pwa wrote: Whether such a culture could be established in a large town or city, I don't know. But it does seem to work pretty well here.


I think a split between through traffic and local traffic is important for that, and I'd identify closing off ratruns as key there so that residential areas are *residential*.

I'm also finding that my opinions are shifting towards blanket 20mph limits on non-numbered roads (with necessary exceptions), and A and B roads to have 30mph limits in urban areas. That is all in aid of reducing differential speeds. I would also apply the limits to cyclists.

I'm still reflecting on cycle paths, but I think we need both Major and Minor versions, one segregated from peds for people to cover distances (eg between towns or along desire lines), and the other to be more for "leisure and local".

Ferdinand
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1514
Joined: 14 Dec 2006, 8:27pm
Location: Lancing, West Sussex
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by admin »

ferdinand wrote:I'm still reflecting on cycle paths, but I think we need both Major and Minor versions


No, please no!

We don't need "cycle paths", they've been tried and have failed terribly. You just end up with footway conversions, which are narrow, not safe, give away priority at every side road, and annoy pedestrians.

We simply need what the Dutch have (and to a certain extent also the Danes). We need cycleways - ways that are designed for bicycles to use, just as carriageways are designed for motor carriages. Dutch-style cycleways are good enough for all cyclists, from children aged 8 cycling on their own to school, all the way to teams of racing cyclists passing through. It's not difficult, although it does need some careful attention to detail and a strong commitment to build them. But, once built, the entire population can make use of them, leading to better health, less congestion, less pollution, less danger, better community interaction, etc, etc.

As an update, we've now been walking to school instead of cycling for some weeks now. The difference is amazing: almost stress-free school journeys! It takes me 40 minutes to get to and from school, compared to 20 minutes on the bike, but it's so much more pleasant. There's no way I'd ever recommend anyone to cycle to school now. Walk, or go by car, I say.
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by old_windbag »

walk or go by car........ thats a shame that you've defaulted to that choice. I think if you were to ask 100 parents the schools, for example, 1.5mls away is it walk or car? I hedge my bets 90 would pick up the car keys. So I think to say walk or go by car will sustain the excess of short distance car journeys, hence pollution, high traffic volumes and obese children/parents. My experiences in the area I live are that people will drive less than half a mile without any thought of walking it, I'm seen as odd as I walk 2mls to the nearest bus stop. I still drive a car, simply try to balance its use, to me 1-2mls would be walk, that also as a kid when I walked to school. I think I must be well out of touch with the modern attitude to life, quite worrying. The idea of say dutch style cycle provision is ideal but I think we all know that no party that would typically be elected in the UK would have such a policy for infrastructure.... the one party that may, the greens, sadly just can't attract the majority and are disadvantaged by our voting system.

So from your experience should we not really be putting the emphasis on walking, together perhaps with public transport in urban areas( rural quite poorly served ) in lieu of the car, also school buses. For those wanting to cycle the roads would then be quieter if others chose those options.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

admin wrote:As an update, we've now been walking to school instead of cycling for some weeks now. The difference is amazing: almost stress-free school journeys! It takes me 40 minutes to get to and from school, compared to 20 minutes on the bike, but it's so much more pleasant. There's no way I'd ever recommend anyone to cycle to school now. Walk, or go by car, I say.

Glad that you've got it sorted. Once you realise that you have to set aside that extra time, it gets second nature. Also, you probably had an extra five minutes at home getting the bikes out, locking the bikes at school, etc.

Keep it up with the kiddies doing the other leisure cycling.
Post Reply