Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happy

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Vorpal
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Vorpal »

If it was only about the traffic, why are school gates locked to keep children in and everyone else out? Why are the trees cut down in school yards so children cannot climb them? Why are sports days cancelled when it rains? Or play ground equipment exactly the same risk-assessed equipment mounted on a rubber mat everywhere in the UK? Or children not allowed to walk to school even when they can walk a traffic-free route on a path through a new housing estate? Why were a majority of children in my village cul-de-sac not allowed to play outside unsupervised?
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bigjim
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by bigjim »

It's that perception thing aagain. The worst year for cycle accidents was 1934. There were over 1500 cyclist deaths in that year. The worst on record when there was very little motorised traffic. What is the average now? About 110 I think.
You can't expect the government to come down in favour of the cyclist v the motorist. There is no money or votes in that. I don't believe more cycle paths is the answer. That ends up in more segredation and losing ownership of the road for the minority. That white demarcation line along the road for cyclists is dangerous. Motorists just think they only have drive close to the line and they are in the right. Money would IMO be better spent on signage reminding motorists that cyclists are there, are vulnerable, need more space and , I wish, have priority.
Those cycle education short films on TV should be brought back as well. Punishments for hitting a cyclist should be a lot harder. Traffic with population is always going to increase. It is no use fighting it, it would be more useful trying find better ways of living with it.
Bicycler
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Bicycler »

Jim, I think you're blurring cycle paths and cycle lanes. I don't think you'll find too many people on this forum suggesting that a bit of paint produces any meaningful benefit for cyclists. As you say it can make things worse.

As for those cycle shorts, do you remember them? Lots of onus on cyclists to stay alive by not getting run over by staying out of the way of cars
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by admin »

Well, we've decided to stop cycling to school.

We've managed for six years, but traffic conditions on local streets have worsened and it's no longer pleasant enough. :(

Walking is a little bit slower, but when you walk you get continuous dedicated motor-traffic-free footways. It's so much more pleasant, and you don't have to spend your whole time worrying whether a driver might pass you too closely. My only regret, with hindsight, is that we didn't stop cycling to school sooner. The daily minor anxiousness about near misses has just disappeared, and we're all a lot happier.

If we had dedicated contiuous motor-traffic-free cycleways, like the Dutch do (and now also in the UK in places like London and Brighton), then cycling would be more attractive than walking as it's quicker and less effort.

Note: I am talking about cycleways here, and not "cycle lanes" or "cycle paths" that we're more used to seeing in the UK. I mean dedicated ways that have been designed and built to suit people using bicycles for transport, that are completely separate from the footways (for people on foot) and carriageways (for people in carriages) and that have junctions designed as well as carriageway junctions are designed.

  • When we walk, we have to cross the paths of motor vehicles six times, but we are in complete control of how close we get to any motor vehicles :D.
  • When we cycled, we were almost continously in the path of motor vehicles, and we had almost no control at all over how close motor vehicles got to us :(.
The difference is like night and day.

It is very clear why no-one now cycles to our primary school of 400 pupils, and why ordinary people never will until the authorities build decent motor-traffic-free cycleways like those they enjoy in the Netherlands.
buryman
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by buryman »

A difficult decision but I'm sure it is the right one. The safety and happiness of your children are far more important than the desire to ride on the roads as you describe them.
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

buryman wrote:A difficult decision but I'm sure it is the right one. The safety and happiness of your children are far more important than the desire to ride on the roads as you describe them.


Safety? Statistically they are at much greater risk from motor traffic on the pavement than on a bike on the road and that's before injuries and deaths from trips and falls are considered.

Happiness? Try that strategy when they are teenagers and see where it gets you.
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Vorpal »

I feel quite sad to read this, but I completely understand. I hope that someday your children can feel reasonably safe cycling anywhere they want to go.
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The fat commuter
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

TonyR wrote:Safety? Statistically they are at much greater risk from motor traffic on the pavement than on a bike on the road and that's before injuries and deaths from trips and falls are considered.

Can we see these stats please.

I know of a few cyclists who have been injured, some severely, after connecting with another road user. I haven't heard of any pedestrians that have been injured, even slightly, having been knocked over on the pavement. I think that the number of pedestrians using the pavement is far higher than cyclists (certainly around here it is) too.
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

The fat commuter wrote:
TonyR wrote:Safety? Statistically they are at much greater risk from motor traffic on the pavement than on a bike on the road and that's before injuries and deaths from trips and falls are considered.

Can we see these stats please.

I know of a few cyclists who have been injured, some severely, after connecting with another road user. I haven't heard of any pedestrians that have been injured, even slightly, having been knocked over on the pavement. I think that the number of pedestrians using the pavement is far higher than cyclists (certainly around here it is) too.


RRCGB2013. Fatalities per bn journey person km 2003-12. Cyclists 27. Pedestrians 31.
buryman
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by buryman »

The statistics would look rather different if quoted as per passenger hour rather than km.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by [XAP]Bob »

buryman wrote:The statistics would look rather different if quoted as per passenger hour rather than km.

Yes, but most people travel a distance, not a time.

For transport then distance is the appropriate measure. For a leisure activity it is time...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
TonyR
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

buryman wrote:The statistics would look rather different if quoted as per passenger hour rather than km.


We're talking about a fixed journey here, from home to school so per km is appropriate unless you think the OP takes a long circuitous route to school on the bike so the journey takes the same time as it would to walk there directly.
The fat commuter
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

TonyR wrote:
The fat commuter wrote:
TonyR wrote:Safety? Statistically they are at much greater risk from motor traffic on the pavement than on a bike on the road and that's before injuries and deaths from trips and falls are considered.

Can we see these stats please.

I know of a few cyclists who have been injured, some severely, after connecting with another road user. I haven't heard of any pedestrians that have been injured, even slightly, having been knocked over on the pavement. I think that the number of pedestrians using the pavement is far higher than cyclists (certainly around here it is) too.


RRCGB2013. Fatalities per bn journey person km 2003-12. Cyclists 27. Pedestrians 31.

Sorry to be picky here but you stated 'on the pavement'. The above stats are pedestrians in general - which can be people crossing the road.

Now, if I look at it that way then I hear of more people being killed and injured in Sheffield as pedestrians than as cyclists. In the last five years I can think of four pedestrian deaths and many pedestrian injuries within two miles of my house. However, from the reports of these deaths they could have been avoided by the pedestrians acting differently.

A child walking to school under supervision or with proper training is unlikely to be injured. What the problem around here is that many pedestrians will simply walk into the path of the traffic - we have a high student population and they seem to have a death wish.

Thinking back though, there was a really sad incident close to our house where a car did mount the pavement and severely injure two young girls about ten years back.

If you use the required amount of care and attention as a pedestrian then the likelihood of you being injured is low. If you take the required amount of care and attention as a cyclist then the likelihood of you being injured is also low. However, the perception that I get is that as a cyclist, because you actually share the road with other vehicles, you are more at mercy to the actions of other drivers than as a pedestrian.

Hope that makes sense.

For what it's worth, I think the OP has made the right decision. I made a similar decision for myself a while back. I can either cycle two and a half miles to work or the long way which is almost eight miles. The eight mile route I feel far safer than on the short route. I am more likely to get pedestrians walking into my path, drivers cutting across me, close passes and aggressive drivers on the short route than the long one. I initially did the long route for the extra time in the saddle - now I do it because it's far more pleasurable.
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Psamathe »

TonyR wrote:
buryman wrote:The statistics would look rather different if quoted as per passenger hour rather than km.


We're talking about a fixed journey here, from home to school so per km is appropriate unless you think the OP takes a long circuitous route to school on the bike so the journey takes the same time as it would to walk there directly.

I think this is one of the major problems with such comparative safety statistics - it is difficult to get meaningful comparison measures. I think you can make a good case for per person hours and a good case for per km as well as probably many other measures. And the underlying problem is that the two groups are in pretty different situations facing different (different to a debatable degree) risks - although from a common source (i.e. motor vehicles the primary cause, but pedestrians on pavements or crossing the road face different risks than cyclists moving along a road).

Bit like comparing apples and bananas.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Walking on the pavement inevitably involves some crossing of roads, similarly cycling on the road inevitably involves some junctions...

The point being that was massively overestimate the risk in one case, and ignore it in the other - when actually they are comparable.

In *this* case the correct decision is being made in terms of family behaviour and stress. Whatever the stats say there is a perception of risk which is hard to shake - particularly when half of the 'industry' seems hell bent on telling everyone how dangerous it is...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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