Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happy

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

How often do these close passes happen? A one-off is bad enough but is it a regular occurrence? If so, have a word with your councillor and see if they can put an occasional police presence on parts of the route. I wonder whether clothing with a picture of a camera and the word 'smile' on the back would make drivers think twice.

In Sheffield the strangest temporary signs have cropped up. They are on a yellow background and say, "Do not overtake cyclists". And then, in smaller writing, "Give cyclists room". I'm sure that better wording would be more effective but I wonder whether some signs similar to those would maybe help, "Give cyclists plenty of room when overtaking".
User avatar
honesty
Posts: 2658
Joined: 16 Mar 2012, 3:33pm
Location: Somerset
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by honesty »

My 4 year old goes to nursery in a trailer. Sometimes she's asked to go in the car, mostly I've said no but I think twice now she's been really distressed so I've gone in the car. Its not worth forcing them to do something they are truly scared of. That just creates tensions and reinforces the issues. Have you done the car run with them? Do it on a hot day, leave the radio off, and make it dull. Ask them at the end of the day how they want to go tomorrow.
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

pwa wrote:I'd try the walking.


Even though statistically its significantly more dangerous than cycling?
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1514
Joined: 14 Dec 2006, 8:27pm
Location: Lancing, West Sussex
Contact:

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by admin »

TonyR wrote:Sometimes we can over think these things. Whatever the perceptions cycling is very safe and accidents very rare. Against that you will be setting a good example for your kid and they will be getting lots of healthy exercise which has significant long term health benefits. So stop over-worrying and get out there and ride.


Sorry, I'm not forcing my children to cycle to school if it means they can't get to sleep at night worrying about it. Two nights ago my son was up in tears after we'd put him to bed, worried about the bike ride to school the next morning. They're not stupid, and we've talked about the risks and how statistically-speaking cycling is safe. The problem is that only one impatient 4x4 hitting us will result in some serious hurt, and we all know that.

Perceptions matter, and they matter a lot more than the statistical safety.

Especially since cycling casualty rates here in West Sussex have been steadily, and significantly, rising over the last few years:

cyc_ksi_137_400.png
cyc_ksi_137_400.png (5.7 KiB) Viewed 663 times


I'm a highly experienced cycle tourist and cycle commuter, who has ridden bikes including recumbents on all sorts of roads from farm tracks to 70mph dual carriageways, from flat places to the Colorado Rockies. I even have an Audax Supper Randonneur award, I've covered a lot of miles in my time. If I'm anxious about near misses, imagine what it's like for my children, who have zero control over their situation. We're a family of keen cyclists, which is why we're the only family that cycles to out school. The general population think we're mad even considering riding bicycles to and from school. We've managed to grit our teeth and keep cycling for many years now, but it's not getting any easier.

The fat commuter wrote:How often do these close passes happen? A one-off is bad enough but is it a regular occurrence?


Regularly, and seemingly more and more often. Some days we cycle to and from school without any incidents, but most days we have at least one unnerving pass. My wife also cycles to the same school (she's a teacher there in Year 6) quite often and she is also starting to think that close passes are getting worse for her too.

A few months ago I suffered a "punishment" pass from a gentleman in an expensive execuative saloon car, because he thought I was riding too far from the kerb. I think that some motorists really do want to scare us off the roads.

The fat commuter wrote:If so, have a word with your councillor and see if they can put an occasional police presence on parts of the route.


I've been a local CTC Right to Ride campaigner here in Worthing for more than two decades, and I can confidently say that my local councillors' opinion is that cycling is dangerous and should not be encouraged. The council are currently spending £6 million of "sustainable transport" money on repaving an old pedestrianised shopping street, because they're more interested in pretty paving than in sustainable transport like cycling. They spend tens of thousands on a "school safety zone" a few years ago, consisting of a part-time 20mph recommended speed limit on the a few metres of road outside the school entrance. I asked about the safety aspect, and the council stated quite categorically that they did not expect the new signs to improve safety, and that they were merely hoping for some "behaviour change". They're not monitoring the effect, and anecdotal evidence is that they have affected nothing. These signs are simply there so the council can pretend to be doing something about safety, without actually doing anything that would impact the "poor motorist" (the source of all the danger).

The police are aware of the increase in cycle casualties, but refuse to enforce speed limits and are suffering huge budget cuts. Their latest idea, formed at a meeting with some local cycle campaigners, is to paint temporary bicycle symbols on back streets to try to persuade cyclists to avoid the more-dangerous main roads. I'm not joking.

If West Sussex County Council put up signs to improve cyclist safety, their signs would read "NO CYCLING" or "CYCLISTS DISMOUNT". And, yes, I do blame WSCC to a large extent for the situation we find ourselves in. They have had access to some very large amounts of money to spend on decent cycle infrastructure in the county, but they always manage to waste it (ask cyclists in Chichester and Horsham about how well the millions of Local Sustainble Transport Fund money have been spent in those towns!) or spend it on projects completely unrelated to transport.

The fat commuter wrote:I wonder whether clothing with a picture of a camera and the word 'smile' on the back would make drivers think twice.


I've made a "LONG VEHICLE" and "Please Pass With Care" signs for the back, to try out when the twins have some confidence back. I expect these might help with the occasional little old lady or school mum, who just aren't aware of the impact their close passing is having. It won't make any difference to the van drivers rushing to their next delivery. The twins are also keen to try out an air horn, to blast vehicles that come too close for comfort.

honesty wrote:Have you done the car run with them?


Once or twice, but the twins don't really like going by car. It also means spending a lot of time sitting in traffic jams, and there are serious parking and congestion problems at the school end.

TonyR wrote:Even though statistically its significantly more dangerous than cycling?


Yes, because it's a lot more pleasant and relaxed. Half of our route would be shared with a thousand school children walking to secondary school, so for our route I'd say walking is likely to be safer, statistically, than cycling is.

The statistics are completely irrelevant to ordinary people. Humans are rubbish are risk analysis: we're happy to cross roads on foot (very dangerous) yet often fear flying in aeroplanes (extremely safe). Our personal experience is much more important: if we feel safe, we're happy. If we feel at risk, we're unhappy.

Thanks for the comments!
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by [XAP]Bob »

If they enjoy the idea of an air horn then definitely get one - or two
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
eileithyia
Posts: 8399
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 6:46pm
Location: Horwich Which is Lancs :-)

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by eileithyia »

So sorry to hear this and not sure what the answer is.. No point forcing them esp if they are stressed and losing sleep.. clearly they are very worried about it.
Walk to school and gradually re-introduce the riding on quieter roads / times to begin with.

My son has some learning issues and was mostly living with his dad, until 2-3 years ago. There became an issue that where they were living had poor public transport on a Sunday when they needed to get his college. Dad was insistent they would ride which would involve using A59 into Preston... at which point i started getting a series of texts on the preceding evening. Upshot was son had decided he would walk off toward nearest town (Chorley approx 10 miles away to get a bus) I said i would drive out to meet him and lo and behold met my son walking about 2 miles away from where he lived.... at which point son was taken to his college fixture and decided he would come home with me and never go back to live with his dad...
During in the conversations it was clear my son was very frightened of riding on the A59 despite reassurances that i twould be ok on a Sunday morning with minimal traffic.... but clearly Andrew had been very frightened by a close pass at some stage on this road.

At 9 clearly that is not going to happen but you do not want to set up resentments and frighten them to the point they lose confidence to ride in future...

For the record, as soon as he moved back in with me my son decided he could now join us timetrialling and rides on a variety of busy roads but still refuses to ride any event that goes along that part of the A59.
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Vorpal »

On advantage of them riding their own bikes, if they are willing to try it, is that you can ask them to go in front of you, and then you can take up a protective position a foot or two further out than them, and they will not be subjected to close passes, though you might be.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
User avatar
horizon
Posts: 11275
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by horizon »

I would ask for help - unashamedly and with as much publicity as possible - local TV, leaflets through the doors in your street, adverts in shop windows:

Ride with us to school!

That doesn't mean the other parents, but neighbours, retired people, workers, people at home, people who work from home, cyclists (and even non-cyclists) generally. Twenty minutes great exercise, lots of social interaction and a great cause - help a dad get his two young kids to school safely. I would do it, straight off, to help. I'm sure other people would. You would ride in the middle, they would ride ahead and behind you. Twenty cyclists, lots of flags and hooters, every day. The "cycle bus" - the press would love it. Maybe your childen could write a letter to the paper suggesting it and telling people how scared they are of the inconsiderate drivers in your local roads. And get those registration numbers videoed!

Shame the other parents as well.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by Vorpal »

horizon wrote:I would ask for help - unashamedly and with as much publicity as possible - local TV, leaflets through the doors in your street, adverts in shop windows:

Ride with us to school!

That doesn't mean the other parents, but neighbours, retired people, workers, people at home, people who work from home, cyclists (and even non-cyclists) generally. Twenty minutes great exercise, lots of social interaction and a great cause - help a dad get his two young kids to school safely. I would do it, straight off, to help. I'm sure other people would. You would ride in the middle, they would ride ahead and behind you. Twenty cyclists, lots of flags and hooters, every day. The "cycle bus" - the press would love it. Maybe your childen could write a letter to the paper suggesting it and telling people how scared they are of the inconsiderate drivers in your local roads. And get those registration numbers videoed!

Shame the other parents as well.

I like that :)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
User avatar
bigjim
Posts: 3244
Joined: 2 Feb 2008, 5:08pm
Location: Manchester

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by bigjim »

I would definately use the big flag on a stick method. I ride quite a bit in urban traffic. Overtaking parked vehicles, I stick my arm right out very forcefully as I move out and traffic gives me a lot of space. If I don't, they are quite happy to rip the skin off my elbow. It's the make yourself big and assertive thing. I don't think such drivers are particularly malicious, I believe they are mostly ignorant bad drivers who have never ridden a bike or forgotten how. Kudos to you for bringing up your young ones to be cycle aware.
I'd stay away from the horn thing. One nasty driver who takes offence could cause an upsetting scene in front of your children.
stork
Posts: 208
Joined: 18 Feb 2008, 8:19pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by stork »

I have every sympathy with you, and I don't think that there's an easy answer -- otherwise with your obvious experience and knowledge you would have found it.

I do a school run with two children of different ages (9 and 6 now), and we currently use a tandem plus Burley trailerbike. It's a very stable combination, although narrower than a U+2. In the past I've used bike plus trailer (when they were much younger and both could fit in), then tandem plus trailer.

We too suffer in Norfolk from councils who mostly appear to see cycles as an obstruction to 'traffic', best marginalised and kept out of the way (or even better, not used at all), an almost total lack of effective traffic enforcement, and poor engineering standards. Not much comfort really, but you're definitely not alone.

On our school run, we are affected by dangerous overtaking quite often -- sometimes close to us, but more often it's just that people overtake us directly into oncoming traffic. We get the occasional bit of direct aggression too. The children are still keen to ride most days, and don't seem to have shown any signs of worry yet, but that's not to say that it won't happen. I guess that forcing them would probably be counterproductive, so I'd second the idea to switch to walking if it suits you all, but maybe to keep up the cycling for different journeys. School run is always a bad time to use the road for anyone -- everyone seems to be in a hurry and to care only about their own journey.

Do keep up the pressure on local authorities etc., even though this won't achieve a miracle, and nor will achieve much or anything overnight. Sadly, 20 years' work is probably still early days if your local authorities are as backward as ours.

There will be a time when they've outgrown the trailerbike anyway, in which case there will be little option but to have at least one of them on their own bike (the other on a tandem). On their own bikes, they will at least have the illusion of control of their own destiny (it's like your example of crossing a road versus flying in a plane), so they'll feel safer even if they are not in fact safer.

I sometimes have a camera attached to the tandem and I do report incidents to the police (who then take no action -- but it's on file against the vehicle if it later does something bad enough to trigger an investigation). On occasions, the police have spoken to drivers who have overtaken dangerously, but that was a while ago when they had a bit more resource to take traffic policing slightly more seriously.

I like the idea of the 'biking bus'. Maybe there are other parents who would consider it? It's the right time of year to give it a go.

In terms of engineering, removal of centre lines might be helpful, and it's not too radical (even Norfolk has done it in some places). Half our ride has a centre line and half doesn't, and the half with the centre line is by far the worse half for close and dangerous passes as well as speeding. This measure can be achieved at no cost if it's done when the road is resurfaced (or, more likely, has surface dressing applied). And it fits with the 'behaviour change' model advocated by your council (which, to be fair to them, does have some merit as, to the extent it works, it doesn't need to be enforced).

Do let us know how things pan out, and what works or doesn't work -- might be helpful for me and others if/when we find ourselves in the same situation.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

horizon wrote:I would ask for help - unashamedly and with as much publicity as possible - local TV, leaflets through the doors in your street, adverts in shop windows:

Ride with us to school!

That doesn't mean the other parents, but neighbours, retired people, workers, people at home, people who work from home, cyclists (and even non-cyclists) generally. Twenty minutes great exercise, lots of social interaction and a great cause - help a dad get his two young kids to school safely. I would do it, straight off, to help. I'm sure other people would. You would ride in the middle, they would ride ahead and behind you. Twenty cyclists, lots of flags and hooters, every day. The "cycle bus" - the press would love it. Maybe your childen could write a letter to the paper suggesting it and telling people how scared they are of the inconsiderate drivers in your local roads. And get those registration numbers videoed!

Shame the other parents as well.

I like this idea too.

It is sad that your elected councillor isn't willing to do anything. However, if he/she sees that the electorate are willing to make a fuss because he wouldn't do anything then I bet he would get involved.
tyreon
Posts: 936
Joined: 4 Oct 2012, 4:39pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by tyreon »

I think you underestimate 'supervision'. 'Helpers,neighbours,retired people': you could be talking about would-be child killers,groomers,snatch-and-grab men. Cos it usually is men. No man gets involved with any younger person these days(unless you are a professional or father),we're all under suspicion. You volunteer someone somewhere would have to have cycle training,be CRB checked,have had First Aid training. Mind you,that's 'jobs creation'(and which must be a plus) We now All Mind Our own Business.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by The fat commuter »

^^

'Admin' will be there with the his children though. Whilst I take on board your concern, it's no different really to taking your kids to a children's party where there are other parents.

One problem with the 'cycling bus' is the fact that it's been mentioned that others already think that you're mad cycling anyhow. This may mean that you are less likely to get helpers.

It may simply be one of these situations where you do have to back down. Walk the kids and take the hit on the time. You know that you do have other times where you can cycle. However, don't back down without a fight. Advise the media - get your picture in the paper (the usual photo of you all looking sad). Put a decent article there how now you're going to have to maybe drive to school as inconsiderate motorists have forced you to do so - this will cause more traffic and more congestion and make it less safe for others. Explain how you think that the councillor won't take action - or advise him that you're going to the papers so that his hand is forced. Same with the police.

I do know what you mean though. Once kids get to a certain age, they get to know that their parents can't protect them against everything and, throw in a few dangerous situations and this is cemented into their minds.

Is the run to the school particularly busy with traffic?
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Cycling to school for years, but children no longer happ

Post by TonyR »

The fat commuter wrote:I do know what you mean though. Once kids get to a certain age, they get to know that their parents can't protect them against everything and, throw in a few dangerous situations and this is cemented into their minds.


That's my concern - this will cement in their minds that cycling is indeed dangerous and that will affect their attitudes to it for the rest of their lives with the consequent health risks. Yes there may be tears at bedtime but as with other things that can elicit tears - going to the dentist or school, going to bed, having to tidy their room - its not about letting them have their own way through the use of tears but doing what is right for them in the long term. Its difficult as a parent to not give in but sometimes you shouldn't. And wait till they become teenagers and really start to test their boundaries! We have enough people out there convinced that cycling is a death wish not to need to add to them from the next generation.
Post Reply