Signs - Minutes or Mileage

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RickH
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by RickH »

stewartpratt wrote:All the junctions on the M1 are labelled simply "<- A511, A50". Never seen any place names next to the numbers, no. Just numbers.

Not convinced - Just zoomed in to random point in Google Maps, selected Streetview at the first junction I saw & got this!

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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I'd go for miles, with a time range if there's space.

iviehoff wrote:
Mick F wrote:This is one in Manchester. I took the photo some years ago.
Signs don't show km or m because that would be illegal in the UK. Bangs head against wall.

Really? I've seen m to junctions and other hazards on warning signs in Wales, and km on footpath signs in Glos and Cuba (the Cuba near Glos, as already mentioned, not the Caribbean!)
stewartpratt
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by stewartpratt »

RickH wrote:
stewartpratt wrote:All the junctions on the M1 are labelled simply "<- A511, A50". Never seen any place names next to the numbers, no. Just numbers.

Not convinced - Just zoomed in to random point in Google Maps, selected Streetview at the first junction I saw & got this!


My post was dripping with sarcasm :)
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RickH
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by RickH »

stewartpratt wrote:My post was dripping with sarcasm :)

I don't think I've ever used the M1 - it doesn't go anywhere I generally want to go - so I just took your post at face value.

Maybe you need to refer to this guidance? :wink:

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stewartpratt
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by stewartpratt »

Image ;)
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foxyrider
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by foxyrider »

There are some cycleroute signs in Handsworth, Sheffield that use time rather than distance - I'd post a pic but Streetview isn't new enough! Anyhow, the signage suggests Rotherham is 40 minutes and Meadowhall a mere 30 minutes. :)
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Tonyf33
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by Tonyf33 »

foxyrider wrote:There are some cycleroute signs in Handsworth, Sheffield that use time rather than distance - I'd post a pic but Streetview isn't new enough! Anyhow, the signage suggests Rotherham is 40 minutes and Meadowhall a mere 30 minutes. :)

Is that accurate or not?
Google maps gives a just over 4 mile distance to Meadowhall by road (a fair few minor roads not the car route) and a generous 10mph speed considering it's downhill all the way, is the signposted route suggested the one that goes all the way around the golf course?
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

sirmy wrote:The use of time on a sign rather than distances isn't aimed at people who would post on forums like this. To many people a ride of 10 minutes is a lot less intimidating than one of 1.5 miles, even though at about 10mph they are roughly the same (about 6 minutes a mile).


Yep, that's exactly it. They're there for marketing, not just information - "why not try cycling? It's quicker than you think, and might be quicker than this traffic jam you're currently stuck in". I think they were first tried in Aylesbury, one of the Cycling Demonstration Towns.

(Incidentally, on the theme of "route numbers only are no use", the latest Sustrans ranger newsletter popped through the door yesterday and has an article encouraging us to use more signs with destinations on...)
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whizzzz
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by whizzzz »

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
sirmy wrote:The use of time on a sign rather than distances isn't aimed at people who would post on forums like this. To many people a ride of 10 minutes is a lot less intimidating than one of 1.5 miles, even though at about 10mph they are roughly the same (about 6 minutes a mile).


Yep, that's exactly it. They're there for marketing, not just information - "why not try cycling? It's quicker than you think, and might be quicker than this traffic jam you're currently stuck in". I think they were first tried in Aylesbury, one of the Cycling Demonstration Towns.


This was just what I was thinking both, a time for a slow / new rider and a distance would cover those who "get" miles and those who would think "wow, only 10 mins by bike, I might give that a go as I think I can do that long on a bike..." but who might shy away from a 2 mile ride. I love the idea that more people might try riding to something as simple as this.
nez
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by nez »

I think it needs further definition. A fat man minute might be more than a slim lass minute.... they could have names '`five Pickwicks to town centre' 'Just a Wiggo away.'
iviehoff
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by iviehoff »

sirmy wrote:Oddly on road signs The North only refers to the area west of the Pennines, places to the East are listed by name(and there's a limited number of them that can be used)!

I'm fairly sure that there are signs to The North to be found on the A1, including in Northumberland. There are also signs to The North to be found in Scotland, I particularly remember seeing one in Fort William as it struck me as quite funny.
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by mjr »

whizzzz wrote:This was just what I was thinking both, a time for a slow / new rider and a distance would cover those who "get" miles and those who would think "wow, only 10 mins by bike, I might give that a go as I think I can do that long on a bike..." but who might shy away from a 2 mile ride. I love the idea that more people might try riding to something as simple as this.

:evil: The slow/new riders would not believe that they could cover 2 miles in the time given, or get depressed and give up riding if they didn't. The fast riders would take the times as a challenge to beat, adding the given times to the segment names on Strava and encouraging everyone to take mad risks and knock down old ladies on their way to evensong and pregnant women pushing prams. Worst of all worlds, isn't it? :evil:
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thirdcrank
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by thirdcrank »

I've made the point before, elsewhere (to the ivory tower) and probably on here, that distances in miles need to be shown along any extended off-road route in relatively deserted areas. I'm thinking in particular of disused railway tracks but there must be others. An inexperienced rider on that sort of path who suffers any sort of emergency for which they are unprepared (eg puncture or hunger knock) and who may have to resort to walking, needs to know whether it would be best to turn back or if they are "past the point of no return." I've been asked for this info myself by somebody I was able to help to continue happily on their way. (Fifty-odd years ago, a passing rider fixed a puncture for me :D :D :D and I've been fully equipped ever since and happy to repay my debt of gratitude to him to a younger generation.)

More generally, I'm amazed that so much effort has gone into this discussion with little comment about the rubbish "routes" which are being signed. Marketing has been mentioned and that's about it. It's often one more way of advertising "how much has been done for cyclists" so why don't they get off the roads and show a bit of gratitude? The mar... word here really is marginalisation.
:evil:
jollytiddlywink
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by jollytiddlywink »

I think that including time estimates alongside mileages would be a good idea, particularly in urban areas where it might encourage more people to cycle. The times should be realistically achievable for any adult in moderate health who hasn't been on a bike since they were little. Particularly if the routes are direct and have priority over motor traffic (some hope, I know!) then a shorter ride than a drive may well entice many people.

In Birmingham, at least, I suspect there is little danger of suggested times being too ambitious. The Council are putting in bike infrastructure in the centre and on commuter routes, but only as far as 20 minutes' cycle from the city centre. I don't want to accuse them of being pessimistic about the average speed of cyclists, but I can RUN from my house to the city centre in 20 minutes and their infrastructure plans don't extend out as far as my house. :roll:
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:More generally, I'm amazed that so much effort has gone into this discussion with little comment about the rubbish "routes" which are being signed. Marketing has been mentioned and that's about it. It's often one more way of advertising "how much has been done for cyclists" so why don't they get off the roads and show a bit of gratitude? The mar... word here really is marginalisation.
:evil:

Not always, although I have educated a few councillors that the reason cyclists are on the carriageway rather than the adjacent shared-use paths is often because those paths are unrideable junk. It's amazing how much ride-through videos highlighting the hazards helps, even if the councillor cannot/will not ride a bike around their own constituency themselves.

I'm trying to persuade our local cycling campaign to take control of the routing network for precisely this reason. It sucks that we need to DIY, but I can't see how else to stop the county council signposting routes that are Simple, Obvious and Wrong because they're sat 40-60 miles away and have forgotten that they built a barrier that prevents use by most cycles (including the hybrids that their construction contractors ride, but not the racing and folding bikes that the highway officers ride), that they let the borough council build a ramp that blocks a cycle route, or that they've let a surface deteriorate to the point that it damages bikes if they exceed 10mph! :roll:

Signposting different routes for bikes makes sense in King's Lynn. There are many paths/tracks, bridges and even level crossings which are closed to motor vehicles but open to bikes and that cut miles off of some journeys.
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