Signs - Minutes or Mileage

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Mick F
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by Mick F »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Cycle paths are only ever signed to the next housing estate, with no indication of what might be beyond...
Spot on!
No use whatsoever to a stranger in town. Those signs meant little or nothing to me. Distances would have helped to get me in the right ball-park.

In this case, I actually knew where I was, and I was walking! I wasn't far from Daughter1's house. I took the photo because I knew the sign was useless to a stranger and enclosed it in a thread on here some years ago.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29732
Mick F. Cornwall
stewartpratt
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by stewartpratt »

One of my favourites. Uselessness off the scale.

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iviehoff
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by iviehoff »

stewartpratt wrote:One of my favourites. Uselessness off the scale.

If you are trying to follow a specific numbered cycle route, it is perfectly adequate. And frankly for repeater signs between cycle route junction on such numbered routes, it is unrealistic to expect any more. Even in Switzerland, that is all you get on the national cycle routes, except at significant interchanges (local routes are signed by destination). Though at least in Switzerland they do give you a map board at main interchanges so you can decide what route you want to follow for the next bit. (Though given I did lose the route a few times, a proper map in my bag was also a necessity.) In many countries in Europe, with much better cycle route systems, all you get is a coloured paint mark between major junctions.
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mjr
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by mjr »

Mick F wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Cycle paths are only ever signed to the next housing estate, with no indication of what might be beyond...
Spot on!
No use whatsoever to a stranger in town. Those signs meant little or nothing to me. Distances would have helped to get me in the right ball-park.

So nobody read my earlier example where one route is signed to the far end, with no indication of the towns passed along the way:
Image

I rode in Cambridge today. Miles were on all white-on-blue and white-on-black route signs. I didn't notice any with minutes.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by [XAP]Bob »

That's more useful than the next housing estate commonly seen, at least I can tell which way is east...

Although obviously having both local and distant destinations (e.g.: THE NORTH, Bristol) is useful to both those at the end of the journey, and those still with a way to travel

And in your example at least there are also road signs helping you work out what is in which direction.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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mjr
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by mjr »

[XAP]Bob wrote:And in your example at least there are also road signs helping you work out what is in which direction.

Ahhh, don't get me started on those. The finger signs out on the fens often use place names and centres which aren't what they're usually called around here. More than once that helped to get me lost in my first few years here. It's one of the joys of being 50+ miles from County Hall! :lol:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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iviehoff
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by iviehoff »

[XAP]Bob wrote:And in your example at least there are also road signs helping you work out what is in which direction.

Around where I live there is what I call the Buckinghamshire Signpost. These are signposts to indicate where the authorities would like you to go, not where you would like to go. I suspect that actually it was Hertfordshire who invented them, as it they who first had the idea of renaming bits of the A5 things like B5297 and signposting all directions via the M1, to try and confuse people and make sure they never did anything as foolish as try to go through St Albans ever again.
Mark1978
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by Mark1978 »

Yup cycle routes are completely useless in the UK. Firstly they'll often take crazy roundabout routes, sometimes putting in a good deal of climbing, just to avoid a short stretch of quiet road - then in the next breath dump you onto a busy road in town!

But quite often the route will vary from nice tarmac, to mud impassible unless you have a full-sus MTB.

What we need is a proper signed network of routes which are passable on all types of bike, in all weather conditions. So rules out anything other than sealed surfaces.
nez
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by nez »

Fat man at the back minute made me laugh aloud. How about the 'distance up Glen Rosa mile'
stewartpratt
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by stewartpratt »

iviehoff wrote:If you are trying to follow a specific numbered cycle route, it is perfectly adequate.


Oh, come on. Imagine I'm approaching that junction from behind the left shoulder of the photographer. Do I go left or right? Both are marked exactly the same! And when I come back, how do I remember that I wanted that turning? It's just got a blue bicycle arrow, as do probably several others.

Even if you're happy with two completely opposite directions being identically labelled, you're assuming that the only reason to ride a bicycle is to dumbly follow a numbered route. The idea of actually wanting to go somewhere doesn't really feature in the Notional Cycle Network. Cycling as a means of getting from from A to B? Don't be silly. What people want is to follow a number and see some lovely hedgerows!

iviehoff wrote:And frankly for repeater signs between cycle route junction on such numbered routes, it is unrealistic to expect any more.


It's not a repeater, though: it's a junction. And, if cycling signage is to be for anyone other than people who do it solely for leisure at the whim of a tourist information leaflet, it's useless.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Just like the M1, no one would ever follow a numbered route to go somewhere...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
sirmy
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by sirmy »

First up, road signs in the UK have to give distances in miles (even though those distances will have been worked outo a map based on 1km grid!). Oddly on road signs The North only refers to the area west of the Pennines, places to the East are listed by name(and there's a limited number of them that can be used)!

The use of time on a sign rather than distances isn't aimed at people who would post on forums like this. To many people a ride of 10 minutes is a lot less intimidating than one of 1.5 miles, even though at about 10mph they are roughly the same (about 6 minutes a mile). Obvioulsy for this to work there would have to a natioanlly agreed figure, 10mph would probably work well for routes over flattish ground

There doesn't appear to be any research into the effect of time versus distance on signage, although the cycling demostration towns, at least Darlington, were allowed to use time on signs. I'd be interested if any one else can find any research to show if time or distance is most likely to encourage people to use their bikes for short journeys. Peresonally I think it might (even though I have no grounds for believing so)
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Possibly - but the signage needs to do more than talk about distance or time.

Much more important is the quality of the surface, or lots of people will never try.
Also important is the ascent...

And they also need to aid navigation, there was a revolution in road signs last century and we need the same for cycle path signage.

There is no point in putting the next housing estate in each direction but nothing further, there is also arguably no point in only putting a destination 100 miles away...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
eileithyia
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by eileithyia »

I noticed recently we have some Cycle signs with minutes on it, totally useless as it will either cause people to try to race it so they beat the time... or be very disillusioned if they cannot ride at that pace....
Signage with only local names is why i often tell people of my routes i use to get around Preston, it is not at all obvious how the various routes link up in order to avoid the A6, multiple lane changes and traffic lights, when travelling from one side to the other...
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stewartpratt
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Re: Signs - Minutes or Mileage

Post by stewartpratt »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Just like the M1, no one would ever follow a numbered route to go somewhere...


Sure. All the junctions on the M1 are labelled simply "<- A511, A50". Never seen any place names next to the numbers, no. Just numbers.
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