Please ignore!

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Tangled Metal »

To give you an example of differences that make big changes in the actions of motorists. I live 2 miles from my parents. A nice ride almost all the way up hill with a fast ride back down. It is a popular country road for a stretch which has drivers going really close and at 60mph.

I bought a child trailer and needed to go there with my 9 month old so I did just that worrying myself and my parents. They never got over it but I quickly calmed about it because every driver took a really wide berth. Most waited until they could go completely on the other side even giving us space. I have never been given so much space before. I can only guess they realised a child was in there.

Whilst not the same it does kind of illustrate my view that small changes potentially have big improvements in how drivers react to you. It might only take 50cm or less for drivers to think twice. That could mean they miss the chance for a risky, close overtake or they move out more since they're more over the line anyway.

Keep meaning to read cyclecraft, heard it's an essential read for commuters.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote:To give you an example of differences that make big changes in the actions of motorists. I live 2 miles from my parents. A nice ride almost all the way up hill with a fast ride back down. It is a popular country road for a stretch which has drivers going really close and at 60mph.

I bought a child trailer and needed to go there with my 9 month old so I did just that worrying myself and my parents. They never got over it but I quickly calmed about it because every driver took a really wide berth. Most waited until they could go completely on the other side even giving us space. I have never been given so much space before. I can only guess they realised a child was in there.

I remember the research from University of Bath where they found that a rider wearing a long blond wig was given wider clearance than one without long blond hair (male rider). Clearly there are processes that indicate drivers can behave sensibly when overtaking bikes but they chose often chose not to. And in the case on long blond hair, I'm sure drivers don't consciously think about giving the cyclist more space.

Maybe I should reconsider getting a hi-vis waistcoat with "Video Recording" printed on the back and go for one of those "Baby On Board" stickers/logos instead.

Ian
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by reohn2 »

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:To give you an example of differences that make big changes in the actions of motorists. I live 2 miles from my parents. A nice ride almost all the way up hill with a fast ride back down. It is a popular country road for a stretch which has drivers going really close and at 60mph.

I bought a child trailer and needed to go there with my 9 month old so I did just that worrying myself and my parents. They never got over it but I quickly calmed about it because every driver took a really wide berth. Most waited until they could go completely on the other side even giving us space. I have never been given so much space before. I can only guess they realised a child was in there.

I remember the research from University of Bath where they found that a rider wearing a long blond wig was given wider clearance than one without long blond hair (male rider). Clearly there are processes that indicate drivers can behave sensibly when overtaking bikes but they chose often chose not to. And in the case on long blond hair, I'm sure drivers don't consciously think about giving the cyclist more space.

Maybe I should reconsider getting a hi-vis waistcoat with "Video Recording" printed on the back and go for one of those "Baby On Board" stickers/logos instead.

Ian

Try one of these :D :-
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid ... 9882222985
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Psamathe »

reohn2 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:To give you an example of differences that make big changes in the actions of motorists. I live 2 miles from my parents. A nice ride almost all the way up hill with a fast ride back down. It is a popular country road for a stretch which has drivers going really close and at 60mph.

I bought a child trailer and needed to go there with my 9 month old so I did just that worrying myself and my parents. They never got over it but I quickly calmed about it because every driver took a really wide berth. Most waited until they could go completely on the other side even giving us space. I have never been given so much space before. I can only guess they realised a child was in there.

I remember the research from University of Bath where they found that a rider wearing a long blond wig was given wider clearance than one without long blond hair (male rider). Clearly there are processes that indicate drivers can behave sensibly when overtaking bikes but they chose often chose not to. And in the case on long blond hair, I'm sure drivers don't consciously think about giving the cyclist more space.

Maybe I should reconsider getting a hi-vis waistcoat with "Video Recording" printed on the back and go for one of those "Baby On Board" stickers/logos instead.

Ian

Try one of these :D :-
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid ... 9882222985

It's complex but "Polite" seems to be worse than blank hi-vis based on research from University of Bath http://opus.bath.ac.uk/37890/1/Walker_2013.pdf.

Long paper but, an interesting table on page 13:
Untitled.jpg

which seems to suggest Polite can make drivers pass closer ! (or have I misinterpreted it?).

Can't say I've read the full paper nor considered it's methodology, etc. so I'm not suggesting it does or does not represent anything useful.

Ian
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by reohn2 »

Going off that table it would appear to be the case.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Psamathe »

reohn2 wrote:Going off that table it would appear to be the case.

I would recommend reading a bit more of the report. I would hate to be quoting data out of context. i.e. don't take my word/selective cutting for it.

Ian
IanW
Posts: 176
Joined: 9 Aug 2013, 2:10pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by IanW »

Psamathe wrote:Maybe I should reconsider getting a hi-vis waistcoat with "Video Recording" printed on the back and go for one of those "Baby On Board" stickers/logos instead.


http://bikeyface.com/2011/09/28/perfec-safety-gear/
LollyKat
Posts: 3250
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Please ignore!

Post by LollyKat »

Raph wrote: I do think I'll get in the habit of riding a bit further out, not to stop people getting past, but to give myself more wobble room to my left.

It is useful to cultivate a deliberate random wobble in such situations - I get a lot more room when I do it :D .
Raph
Posts: 636
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 8:14pm
Location: Banbury

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Raph »

LollyKat wrote:
Raph wrote: I do think I'll get in the habit of riding a bit further out, not to stop people getting past, but to give myself more wobble room to my left.

It is useful to cultivate a deliberate random wobble in such situations - I get a lot more room when I do it :D .


When there's a single fat lorry coming up behind on an otherwise quiet bit of road I usually move out a bit, then move back in as it passes, that's because I usually find that they pass closer when there's nobody about, perhaps because they think there are no witnesses, and/or possibly because on a busy road, drivers normally do whatever the driver in front does, so if one moves over to give a cyclist some space, the rest do as well. This one was unusual in passing really close where nobody else had done.

PS I have a hi-viz jacket tied to my shoulder bag, not visible in either vid, that flaps about in the wind and creates a bit of extra space - but I think the guy was just daydreaming. I could have been dancing the cancan in a tutu and tiara while pogoing along and he still wouldn't have left any space. Hmmmm, that's giving me some ideas...
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Tangled Metal »

Hi viz tutu might 2work.

Any parent with a child seat could get a princess on board sticker for the back, or Prince on board as appropriate. That works well with cars. right?!!!
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by reohn2 »

Raph wrote:When there's a single fat lorry coming up behind on an otherwise quiet bit of road I usually move out a bit, then move back in as it passes, that's because I usually find that they pass closer when there's nobody about, perhaps because they think there are no witnesses,

Other than rigid tippers(such as the one in the video) and skip trucks,I generally find HGV drivers to very considerate to me when cycling.

and/or possibly because on a busy road, drivers normally do whatever the driver in front does, so if one moves over to give a cyclist some space, the rest do as well.

I'd agree with that and that's why if I get a close pass I always wave my right arm in a move over motion,the one's following invariably give me space,I see it as education :)

This one was unusual in passing really close where nobody else had done.

S/he certainly did that :shock:

....I think the guy was just daydreaming.

If s/he was,it was a daydream that could cost you your life!
I suspect the driver thought ''gap big enough for my truck to fit through,go for it''
If there hadn't been a gap s/he wouldn't have gone.
I could have been dancing the cancan in a tutu and tiara while pogoing along and he still wouldn't have left any space. Hmmmm, that's giving me some ideas...

With some HiViz flapping the driver saw you alright of that there's no doubt,but without a gap s/he wouldn't have gone through.
IME the further to the left the less attention I get I think it's a bit of psychology,if I'm in front of them they think they need to go around me if I'm to one side they don't.Of course that doesn't account for the goons,but even goons don't want to hit anything.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by pwa »

That looks like an awful road. Very busy and not much room. I'm sure you were on it for a good reason, but my first thought with a road like that is always "how can I avoid it?". If I have to ride on that sort of road I ride far enough out to control things (wheel about 75 cm from the kerb is my default position) and try to keep my speed up to get through the bad bit a.s.a.p.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:That looks like an awful road. Very busy and not much room. I'm sure you were on it for a good reason, but my first thought with a road like that is always "how can I avoid it?". If I have to ride on that sort of road I ride far enough out to control things (wheel about 75 cm from the kerb is my default position) and try to keep my speed up to get through the bad bit a.s.a.p.

+1
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Raph
Posts: 636
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 8:14pm
Location: Banbury

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Raph »

pwa wrote:That looks like an awful road. Very busy and not much room. I'm sure you were on it for a good reason, but my first thought with a road like that is always "how can I avoid it?". If I have to ride on that sort of road I ride far enough out to control things (wheel about 75 cm from the kerb is my default position) and try to keep my speed up to get through the bad bit a.s.a.p.


Wheel 75cm from the kerb is exactly where I am on that road - given that the wide angle screws up perceptions, look at the guy behind me, size him up, gauge the front wheel, then mentally lay it on its side from him to the kerb - he's about a wheel diameter from the kerb, sometimes less, in fact I've just noticed he wobbles towards the kerb as the truck passes. On average I'm slightly further out than him.

Speed - c.15mph, on a good day more like 17-18 or 20+ with a tail wind but I don't think safety-wise that makes a lot of difference. If I dawdle for whatever reason I just use the path, which is knobbly and strewn with gravel and crud.

The fact that there are other road users who are half asleep is just a fact of life. In a way I prefer malice from drivers rather than inattentiveness - those that deliberately buzz you are at least intending to miss. Since I moved out of London this kind of thing happens very rarely - this is the worst in nearly 20 years whereas when I lived in the Smoke there were several of these every day, usually accompanied by a tirade of abuse!

Yes there's another route into town, picturesque and lovely, but longer and fast roads with dodgy blind bends, a straight stretch where speeds get up to 70-80mph, at least one significant accident black spot, and I've known of at least two deaths there while I've lived around here, and witnessed one fairly spectacular accident. So more scenic but no better. But the wider point is: do I change my plans in perpetuity every time I go into town, to accommodate the one dozy twerp that can't stay awake at the wheel? Plus I don't know where he's going to appear, I'd have to ring him up on the morning and ask "are you going to drive like an eejit on the main road today or the back route?" and ultimately it's up to him to drive properly and give others a bit of space. In theory the road's for everyone, in practise there's a compromise to be made, if it's only cyclists that compromise by staying off main roads then it's not a compromise and we merely confirm the common misconception that roads are only for cars and cyclists should stay out of the way. The fact that main roads can be unpleasant is another matter.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Please ignore!

Post by Psamathe »

IanW wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Maybe I should reconsider getting a hi-vis waistcoat with "Video Recording" printed on the back and go for one of those "Baby On Board" stickers/logos instead.


http://bikeyface.com/2011/09/28/perfec-safety-gear/

Excellent. Might work as well. The last bit sums-up so much about cycling on roads
http://bikeyface.com/2011/09/28/perfec-safety-gear/ wrote:Because apparently human beings don’t have a problem with hurting other human beings… just because they happen to have a bicycle.

However intentionally hurting a puppy is a totally different thing. Nobody dares do that. Because that would mean that you’re actually a bad person.


Ian
Post Reply