Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

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reohn2
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by reohn2 »

Tom Richardson wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
And from the other thread on strict liability


no need for strict liability here - they've already got it (presumed liability anyway)

because the driver has been prosecuted for driving without due care and attention (and no MOT!) there will be a presumption of her liability for negligence (in court) if the cyclist sues her. Her insurers will know that and most likely just pay up without going to court if the cyclist claims. i.e. the cyclist can claim from her for costs and damages to him and to his bike so that he is at least no worse off from the incident.


Sorry my bad wording,it was late I was tired,etc,etc....
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Tom Richardson
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by Tom Richardson »

this incident demonstrates to me - more than anything - the ignorance and stupidity of some motorists:

first she chooses to drive illegally - with no MOT. If she doesn't recognise that she is driving illegally without an MOT then she shouldn't be driving at all.

second, she brings herself into conflict with another road user while driving illegally. Even someone with the loose morals to drive illegally would avoid highlighting the fact by bringing themselves into conflict with other road users if they had any sense.

Third, she appears to be so ignorant of her own vulnerability to claims and prosecution and/or a blinding hatred of cyclists that she goes on to deliberately drive into one with her car (while driving illegally).


She can claim against the cyclist for the alleged damage to her car door - if she can demonstrate that the cyclists did it. Meanwhile she has rightly been prosecuted for her driving and the cyclist can claim from her for repair of damage to his bike, personal injury and relevant expenses. They both might already have done that. If not I sincerely hope that they do. Whether you like it or not its how the system works. It will make good the damage to both parties and make them aware that they can't go around damaging cars or running people down without come backs. Neither of them seem to be aware of that previously.
pwa
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by pwa »

Neither party comes out of this smelling of roses. Both handled the situation badly. They allowed anger to take over, then rational behaviour went out of the window. I'm not convinced any legislation could prevent such behaviour when anger takes over. I imagine that the cyclist was only prevented from doing more damage by the limitations of what he had to hand. The driver had a car to use. Two crazed individuals, one better armed than the other.

Does that excuse driving into someone, even at low speed? No, of course not. But it does provide context. Maybe even "mitigating circumstances", up to a point. Personally, I would want to charge the cyclist with criminal damage and the motorist with assault, and include some anger management course as part of the sentence. And a driving ban would seem appropriate.
Bicycler
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by Bicycler »

Confession of a car (well, van) kicker.

I once did as a van overtook and drifted ever closer to me on a roundabout and I saw myself heading into a disappearing wedge between van and kerb (with railings!) at the exit. The emotion wasn't anger it was fear. Blind terror. I thought I was going to be crushed I think I was trying to push it away, a bizarre reaction but perhaps a natural one. I made a swift dismount in the narrow space between van and railings. Needed a sit down after that one.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I got accused of kicking a car (which had tagged me with a wing mirror) - then I pointed out that I was in cleats, and therefore unable to kick anything
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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reohn2
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by reohn2 »

Tom Richardson wrote:this incident demonstrates to me - more than anything - the ignorance and stupidity of some motorists:

first she chooses to drive illegally - with no MOT. If she doesn't recognise that she is driving illegally without an MOT then she shouldn't be driving at all.

second, she brings herself into conflict with another road user while driving illegally. Even someone with the loose morals to drive illegally would avoid highlighting the fact by bringing themselves into conflict with other road users if they had any sense.

Third, she appears to be so ignorant of her own vulnerability to claims and prosecution and/or a blinding hatred of cyclists that she goes on to deliberately drive into one with her car (while driving illegally).


She can claim against the cyclist for the alleged damage to her car door - if she can demonstrate that the cyclists did it. Meanwhile she has rightly been prosecuted for her driving and the cyclist can claim from her for repair of damage to his bike, personal injury and relevant expenses. They both might already have done that. If not I sincerely hope that they do. Whether you like it or not its how the system works. It will make good the damage to both parties and make them aware that they can't go around damaging cars or running people down without come backs. Neither of them seem to be aware of that previously.

Spot on IMHO.

BTW I very often feel the need to 'push' a vehicle away from me as a natural reaction out of fear to it being too close to me.It I suppose can seem like I've caused terrible harm to a car door as it can make a loud noise,though it does invariably mean the driver reacts by swerving away from me :roll: :wink:
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toomsie
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by toomsie »

Lesson should be don't micturate off a cager unless you stay behind him.
Vorpal
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by Vorpal »

We don't know what proceeded the incident. The 'kick' could well have been the cyclist fending off a car that came too close. Frankly, if she was close enough to kick, she was far too close. But, even if if the cyclist wasn't merely fending off the car, but retaliating, she escalated the disagreement from property damage to assault, using her car as a weapon.



IMO, she should be banned for life because she clearly is not capable of the mature judgement required to safely control an automobile. However, according to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -bike.html, she did get 6 points and a £600 penalty, which is more than some drivers have gotten when they've killed a cyclist.
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RogerThat
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by RogerThat »

Although both parties seem at fault here, I think anyone, especially in a jury based scenario would side with the cyclist.

Automatic liability for motorists can't come quick enough imo.
Postboxer
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by Postboxer »

We don't know the details of what preceded the collision, but the charge of careless driving doesn't seem appropriate for the collision, which appears to have been on purpose, I don't know if she could have argued she was just apprehend the criminal who had just damaged her private property?
Vorpal
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by Vorpal »

Funnily enough, I came across a report of a similar incident in Norway.... http://www.osloby.no/nyheter/45-dagers- ... 20496.html

The article is in Norwegian. You can maybe stick it in a translator, but I will provide a summary...

The driver stopped with the car (Audi!) blocking a pedestrian crossing, which the cyclist wanted to use, an argument ensued, and the cyclist smashed a mirror on the car. The driver chased him down with the car, ran up onto the pavement and knocked him down. He had some pain, but was not seriously injured. The driver claimed she was only trying to scare the cyclist, but admitted the the sequence of events.

She was driving illegally because she did not yet have a licence. She was banned from taking a driving exam for three years and given 30 days in jail. It would have been 90 days, except that she admitted guilt. Liability was not discussed in the article, though that is usually assigned at the same time as any criminal charges in Norway. My guess is that because they each damaged the others' property, the judge said they were even in that regard.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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reohn2
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Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

Post by reohn2 »

Reading Vorpal's post above and my experiences in other European countries,it would seem that in a civilised country the authorities remove the uncivilised from the roads for a long time and for a short time from society for punishment and rehabilitation.
Whilst in the UK the they're told don't be naughty,don't do it again.
IMO It's the reason why UK roads are so aggressive,chaotic and at times potentially so dangerous :? .

Good laws,good policing and harsh penalties IMO make for a much calmer and stress free road use for all and one of the factors why people are happier in such societies.
It's the civil duty of the authorities of organised society to see to that,unfortunately the UK has lost it's way in this respect because of politrickal fear of a backlash at the ballot box IMO.
I think it's morally wrong and as so many road users witness daily bad policy which leads to a more hostile environment in which to live.
Just my 2d's worth.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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