SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too Close

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
borderghost
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by borderghost »

For me living rural l find it is HGV lorry's, they dont seem to want to lose any speed so take chances and then quickly have to pull back in to avoid a vehicle coming the opposite direction, they then force me hard into the curb, In general though l think its a problem with drivers not following the highway code, for me its a total mixture of vehicles, the most recent vehicles were a HGV, 620 rover, ice cream van and a fiesta with go faster stripes. When im driving l will not pass unless l can give the rider enough room that if they should fall l should still hopefully miss them.
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

DevonDamo wrote:Above, Reohn describes a precautionary approach: assume the person behind will attempt a dangerous manoeuvre and take action to prevent that. I have a different approach - ride in such a way that signals I'm doing everything I can to let the following person get past.

Mine's one of ''I'm vulnerable because I'm not surrounded by a tin box and belted in with over 100HP under my right foot,so if it's not safe for ME for you to pass,I'll block your passage until I think it is''
It's termed as 'assertive riding' and I've practised it for a very long time.
I'm under the impression the overwhelming majority of drivers understand why I ride the way I do because it's logical and a common sense approach.
It's the significant minority split in two groups a)the stupid one's who can't read what's going on because either they're thick or are 'elsewhere'(more than likely using a mobile these days) or b) the 'horned ones',the aggressive drivers who take exception to anything and more so a cyclist,getting in their way,the people with an attitude that they are far more important than anyone else.
And more often than not think cyclists should either be off the roads entirely or should ride in the gutter out of their way.These people can become even more aggressive when encountering a group of cyclists.
The second group IME are more likely though not exclusively, to drive prestige or SUV type vehicles or are more likely have 'vanity' reg plates.

PS,yes I'm stereo typing but I'm afraid that is my experience over a long time driving and cycling,and I believe it's becoming worse.The UK's low and aggressive driving standards are never more apparent than after a period of driving and riding on the continent
Last edited by reohn2 on 25 Mar 2015, 1:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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pwa
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by pwa »

Reohn2

I ride assertively, as you describe it, controlling things when I need to. But my relatively few actual physical contacts with vehicles (2 in 45+ years on the road) have been due to dopey / inattentive driving rather than aggression. One vehicle was a van, the second a small hatchback driven by a very elderly man.
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:Reohn2

I ride assertively, as you describe it, controlling things when I need to. But my relatively few actual physical contacts with vehicles (2 in 45+ years on the road) have been due to dopey / inattentive driving rather than aggression. One vehicle was a van, the second a small hatchback driven by a very elderly man.


My only contact with another vehicle whilst cycling was a few weeks ago when a large VW peole carrier/SUV(?)overtook me and clipped my right hand with his wing mirror which left a bruise that I only noticed when I took my glove off at a cafe stop later on.
His reaction was to stick two fingers up to me after he passed by.He knew exactly what he was doing IMHO.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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pwa
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by pwa »

Console yourself with the knowledge that those electronics-filled wing mirrors are easily damaged and cost a fortune to replace.
DevonDamo
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by DevonDamo »

I have my own theories, based on my own experience on the road, of what goes through other people's minds and how that translates into behaviour. We won't agree...

However, my point is this: with polarised issues such as this one, forum discussions produce more heat than light. Wouldn't it be nice to have some good quality, rigorous research which can actually tell you 'if you do x, then your chances of experiencing y increase/decrease by whatever percentage.' In other words, find out how the world is, rather than how the highway code states it ought to be. You're free to choose your approach, e.g. asserting your rights on the road versus 'help-them-get-past', but information of this type would help you decide your most effective strategy to stay out of harm's way.

I'm intrigued by the 'helmets incite closer overtakes' hypothesis, and surprised that psychological/behavioural issues of this type don't get much of a look-in when it comes to research. I believe them to be orders of magnitude more important to our safety on the road than the CE marking of pedal reflectors or whatever else the cycling safety budgets are spent on.
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:Console yourself with the knowledge that those electronics-filled wing mirrors are easily damaged and cost a fortune to replace.


A few cm's more to his left and I wouldn't have been replaceable!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

DevonDamo wrote:I have my own theories, based on my own experience on the road, of what goes through other people's minds and how that translates into behaviour. We won't agree...

However, my point is this: with polarised issues such as this one, forum discussions produce more heat than light. Wouldn't it be nice to have some good quality, rigorous research which can actually tell you 'if you do x, then your chances of experiencing y increase/decrease by whatever percentage.' In other words, find out how the world is, rather than how the highway code states it ought to be. You're free to choose your approach, e.g. asserting your rights on the road versus 'help-them-get-past', but information of this type would help you decide your most effective strategy to stay out of harm's way.

You seem to be saying that I don't exercise a 'help-them-get-past' strategy,I do,frequently.It's not that aspect of cycling we're dealing with and I do appreciate that a cycling strategy is holistic in it's application.
I do everything I can to let motors pass but not when it's not safe for me.

I'm intrigued by the 'helmets incite closer overtakes' hypothesis, and surprised that psychological/behavioural issues of this type don't get much of a look-in when it comes to research. I believe them to be orders of magnitude more important to our safety on the road than the CE marking of pedal reflectors or whatever else the cycling safety budgets are spent on.

Over the colder periods this winter I been wearing a beanie hat as it's been warmer than a helmet( I'm wearing a helmet less these days after looking at the research into their effectiveness) and didn't notice any difference,I'm aware that some do and that there has been a little research into it but couldn't point to the exact location on the web.
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toomsie
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by toomsie »

DevonDamo wrote:I have my own theories, based on my own experience on the road, of what goes through other people's minds and how that translates into behaviour. We won't agree...

However, my point is this: with polarised issues such as this one, forum discussions produce more heat than light. Wouldn't it be nice to have some good quality, rigorous research which can actually tell you 'if you do x, then your chances of experiencing y increase/decrease by whatever percentage.' In other words, find out how the world is, rather than how the highway code states it ought to be. You're free to choose your approach, e.g. asserting your rights on the road versus 'help-them-get-past', but information of this type would help you decide your most effective strategy to stay out of harm's way.

I'm intrigued by the 'helmets incite closer overtakes' hypothesis, and surprised that psychological/behavioural issues of this type don't get much of a look-in when it comes to research. I believe them to be orders of magnitude more important to our safety on the road than the CE marking of pedal reflectors or whatever else the cycling safety budgets are spent on.


I agree. I often go on youtube to find some useful tips on cycling. But most of the time they emphasize the behaviour of the cager and less how to stay in one piece. I might create a video call "Road Coward". I will not confront drivers or remember his reg-number. I will instruct cyclist how to avoid having issues.
DevonDamo
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by DevonDamo »

reohn2 wrote:You seem to be saying that I don't exercise a 'help-them-get-past' strategy


Nope - didn't want to set that hare running, so studiously avoided commenting on your riding choices and any reasons why mine may be different. I cited two diametrically-opposed approaches as an example of how riding decisions might be informed by this type of behavioural/psychological research.
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

DevonDamo wrote:
reohn2 wrote:You seem to be saying that I don't exercise a 'help-them-get-past' strategy


Nope - didn't want to set that hare running, so studiously avoided commenting on your riding choices and any reasons why mine may be different. I cited two diametrically-opposed approaches as an example of how riding decisions might be informed by this type of behavioural/psychological research.


Until you post some of your views/ideas what goes through drivers minds I fail to see how we can even begin sort out this thread :?
To clarify,my view is that the vast majority of motorist exercise caution and courtesy around cyclists,however a significant albeit small minority either don't know how to treat cyclists or don't care.
The former simply don't realise their effect on cyclists and vulnerable road users,the latter simply don't care,either way contact or a collision with a cyclist by either results to the same outcome,they remain safe,cyclist comes off worst to a lesser or greater degree and at worst ends up dead.
The only time I'm absolutely sure which is which is when and if get to have a word with them about the effect their bad driving is having on me,their response to informing them how close they were to me,is usually the give away .

My riding strategy is a simple one,keep safe by being prominent on the road(riding in secondary position) and when I consider the need for my safety to be increased,take the lane(ride in primary).Always indicate clearly my intentions when turning etc.
Trust no one,consider all other traffic on the road to be driven by madmen and lunatics who may do anything at any time,maintain the Boy Scout motto 'be prepared' (for anything).
Trust is a luxury I can't afford other road users.
The intentions of others I can't do much about,but I can influence their decisions by strategy.
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DevonDamo
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by DevonDamo »

This is one of those endless debates which I only get involved in when I feel the need to do some taxi-driver style venting. We all think the world wants to hear the conclusions we've drawn from our anecdotal evidence, but we'd need something more objective to get either side to move their entrenched positions. So for now I'll just settle for hoping that some european-funded research body or desperate undergraduate decides to have a scratch around in this area.
Tangled Metal
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by Tangled Metal »

Well I once clipped a wing mirror of a Bentley I was undertaking in a traffic jam. Hit it on the end of my handlebars which sent me into the kerb. The traffic moved and she caught me up, pulling over to ask if there was any damage. I said no and took a different route home for a few weeks. I can tell you I reckon the cost to replace that wing mirror was probably more than my bike cost me, with all the extras I put on for commuting. Also I can tell you that a 2 seater Bentley convertible car has very solid wing mirrors. If one of them hit you the you would most certainly notice it and it would hurt. <Mind you if my wing mirror hit you then I doubt it would survive intact unlike the brick that is the Bentley mirror.
Phil Fouracre
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Thought I read some time ago that research had been carried out re the efficacy of wearing a long blonde wig, resulted in the greatest space being given by car drivers. Just to add my contribution, for what it's worth! I think I've been given a greater amount of space riding our local A road when in tee shirt, shorts, 'floppy hat' and sandals (not what you'd call trendy, but........!)
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Guy951
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by Guy951 »

Phil Fouracre wrote:...I think I've been given a greater amount of space riding our local A road when in tee shirt, shorts, 'floppy hat' and sandals (not what you'd call trendy, but........!)

I've noticed that, too. The less like a "proper" cyclist I look, the more courtesy I receive. Weird!
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