SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too Close

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Tangled Metal
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SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too Close

Post by Tangled Metal »

Seeing as there seems to be a few posts floating around about a certain type or model of vehicle driving too close on their passing manouevres i thought I would ask the question whether there could actually be some truth in these assertions??

First off I'd like to get my pedantic tendancy out of the way. It is the driver who is driving too close and the vehicle is passing too close. A pedantic distinction but to me makes more sense.

Secondly, do certain vehicles bring out of a driver negative driving or is it the fact that the drivers with the negative driving tend to like certain vehicles?

To illustrate this with one of the vehicle types often complained about, SUVs. Popular with families for perceived driver safety and improved sight lines (perceived i think without true validity AFAIK). So if these SUVs are driven less considerately than say a mondeo or honda accord is it because the people who like to buy these vehicles tend to be less inconsiderate to other road users or is it the case that there is something in the car that brings out inconsiderate driving when seen by those at the receiving end? Perhaps there is a design flaw where you can not easily judge the edges of the vehicle so that you are actually closer than it looks to the driver. Perhaps it is something to do with the fact that the SUV driver feels more right to be there. Perhaps it is just a perception from those being overtaken that the SUV is closer than it really is. I can see how a bigger bulk of a car ccould pass by a cyclist with more draft being felt which perhaps makes it feel closer. Is there something in that?

Basically I am curious as to whether there is truth in some of these cyclist folk stories about certain vehicle types or models being worse than others. A classic for everyone is BMW drivers having a bad reputation as being arrogant. Stems from company car owners I guess but not sure it is true these days. Anecdotally i think Audi drivers are now worse as a group but who knows.

Anyway, is there any value in these posts about Audi/BMW/SUV/White Van drove too close threads?? Does it solve anything? Does it raise awareness among the drivers of those groups? Is it just a way to vent your spleen over someone who did you wrong on your commute into work this morning? Just wanted to ask the questions and see what people thought.
pete75
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by pete75 »

It's a type of car not a make and it's small hatchbacks which seem to have the most inconsiderate drivers. Most of the bike/ car incidents I've had have been with one of the hoard of Golfs, Minis, Metros, Polos, Escorts, Fiestas, Meganes, Clios, Yaris etc which infest our roads. They also seem to be responsible for most of the congestion.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote:It's a type of car not a make and it's small hatchbacks which seem to have the most inconsiderate drivers. Most of the bike/ car incidents I've had have been with one of the hoard of Golfs, Minis, Metros, Polos, Escorts, Fiestas, Meganes, Clios, Yaris etc which infest our roads. They also seem to be responsible for most of the congestion.


But then they would do,as they're by far the most numerous vehicle on UK roads so proportionately there must be more idiots driving small HB's than any other vehicle.That seems by law of averages to be a given.

I'm close passed on a regular basis by a variety of vehicles,ranging from small hatchbacks to HGV's.By far the most numerous are small HB's,the most aggressive IMO are German prestige cars BMW's Audi's,etc.
But disproportionately for their percentage by number on the road the most close passes are SUV's/large 4x4's.

I'm of the opinion there are those drivers who can't judge timing and vehicle width(idiots who can't drive very well) and those who can but choose to drive with extremely fine tolerances(idiots who IMO spend to much time playing silly games on Xbox,etc),and those that deliberately are out to intimidate and bully smaller vehicles especially cyclists(maniacs out to cause harm either physical or mental and who have to do something to make up for their small genitalia).
Whatever the purpose the result is the same,I get a fright,which makes me angry,if I catch the vehicle up I tend to have a word,which initially is cordial but depending on the response I can either become irate with them or if they apologise as they were unaware of the effect they've had on me it remains cordial.

The one that sticks out in my mind the most was Range Rover who passed very close and fast.I caught him up at the next TL as he was stuck in the inevitable jam.
It was a warm sunny afternoon,and I approached the drivers open window,I simply said ''how do'' right by his side.He jumped out of his skin I'd obviously made a bit of an impact :) ,I took the opportunity to explain how frightening it was to sneak up on someone especially in 2tonnes of motor car.
He got the point.
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reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

DevonDamo wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


Is that an observation borne out of experience?
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
DevonDamo
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by DevonDamo »

reohn2 wrote:Is that an observation borne out of experience?


It's not an observation. It's a well-documented and pretty-much undisputed psychological phenomenon which explains why different people, faced with the same evidence, may make entirely different conclusions about which other road users are the antichrist.
beardy
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by beardy »

I think that the height of vehicles has some impact on both the passing distance and our perception of it.

As a passenger in a high vehicle I notice that the different angle does give you a different perspective on passing distances you are looking at "gaps" from above as well as from behind.

Similarly when they pass you as a cyclist you have their straight side at your elbow rather than the sloping part of a normal car.

I am sure on occasions that car mirrors have actually passed under my arm. A similar pass would have hit me or at least felt closer if the nearest part was higher up.

Though that any of them are passing with inches to spare rather than feet to spare is the real problem.
Vorpal
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by Vorpal »

To be honest, I don't notice that any particular brand or type is worse or better than others.

I do think that the drivers of some types of vehicles are less likely to be cyclists, and therefore less able to understand the needs of cyclists. So there is probably a grain of truth in it, but not much more than that.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

DevonDamo wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Is that an observation borne out of experience?


It's not an observation. It's a well-documented and pretty-much undisputed psychological phenomenon which explains why different people, faced with the same evidence, may make entirely different conclusions about which other road users are the antichrist.


Here's a bit of confirmation bias,today 5 close overtakes,two within approx 0.6m the other three within 1m.Non of which were SUV's,but one was an Audi,one was a Merc,the others were smallish hatchbacks.
Non were the AntiChrist,but all close passes weren't necessary and one miscalculation or mistake by either party could've sent me to see Christ(should he exist).
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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toomsie
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by toomsie »

It could be worth appropriate to profile el different types of drivers. I drive for 12 years and have not noticed any real difference between minivans and SUVs until I started cycling. BMW drivers however, even as a car driver, their behaviour is significant. I new a manager at my workplace who would speed in the car park like Roland Ratzenberger it was quite immusing to the other staff. I had a formal grievance with him because he had a go because I did the evil thing of looking inside of his car. Which logically is much worse then his speeding.
pwa
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by pwa »

The nearest I've come to being clipped by a passing vehicle in the past couple of years was at a mini roundabout in Chipping Norton last October. The offending vehicle was a beaten up old Peugeot estate car driven by a middle aged lady in a hurry.

Lorries round my way (Vale of Glamorgan) are not usually too bad. Buses can be a bit pushy on the lanes, so I counter this by taking a more central position until I decide there is room to pass.

SUVs / Pick-ups: just like other cars, no better and no worse.

On an average 15 mile leisure ride around my area I encounter no dangerous driving and no hassle. And that is on roads (there are no cycle tracks).
Tangled Metal
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by Tangled Metal »

The number 5 bus. IME the number 5 bus is more likely to try and squeeze through a constriction at the entrance to a mini roundabout with me than anyother type of vehicle. That means number 5 buses are the worst offenders for driving too close through mini roundabouts.

Pedestrians. They are the worst for doing that "getting out of the way" dance on mixed use paths and bridges. They are really bad for that. Perhaps we should ban them or something.

Sorry for the bad examples above. We all have our experiences of riding bicycles on the streets of the UK. If you commute at the same time each day then it is likely that you encounter the same people who also commute that way. I have identified a few cars and many cyclists who commute at about the same time as me including a few really bad and dangerous drivers. I could just put it down to them as individuals or say that because they were in a BMW then most BMW drivers drive their car in a similar way. Add more BMW drivers who do similar things and you see a pattern. Is that pattern there or is it just your localised perception of a pattern based on a few drivers who annoyed you by making you feel less than safe on the roads riding your bicycle. Do you notice those who are safe BMW drivers?

I have no idea of confirmation bias or anything like that. My view is that these threads that are started are really just about some cyclist posting about a near miss that got him or her angry or made the feel unsafe. The make or type of vehicle is not important really it is just a case of venting you spleen. That is not useful if you ask me but might help you to calm down by sharing. This is just my opinion and the reason for my original post.
reohn2
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by reohn2 »

Yesterday's 56mile ride which I mentioned above wasn't in rush hour traffic(I'm retired and avoid rush hour if at all possible),but between the hours of 11am and 4pm with two stops for a quick coffee,on mostly wide country lanes with a couple of A road 'links' which are unavoidable.
All but one of those close passes was absent of all other traffic with a free lane on the other side of the road for those loonie drivers to go into,they simply chose not to.The remaining close pass,one of the two closest overtakes was in the face of oncoming traffic which amounted to one car,so all the idiot had to do was wait a maximum of 2 seconds or with enough forethought adjust closing speed accordingly.
I was also overtaken twice on blind bends(high hedges) despite being in primary position with the overtaking vehicle forced to the opposite lane,had I not been in primary should another vehicle been coming the other way during the overtake I would have been forced into the nearside hedge,as it was I created an escape rout on my nearside,which is standard cycling practice,one of those cars was an SUV
Why would anyone overtake on a blind bend on the wrong side of the road,when the alternative is a 5 to 6second wait? :)

During that ride I was overtaken by numerous vehicles(200?) who gave me space and courtesy including one driver who waited patiently at the top of a steep narrow climb(quite unnecessarily IMO as there was room for us both)until I was at the top,obviously I gave her a thank you wave as I passed,she was driving an SUV(didn't get the make/model),nice lady :)

The point is that the overwhelming majority of drivers are careful and courteous,but it's hard to pick out the loonies,experience(I usually ride 7to 9k miles a year and drive 11 to 12k miles per year)has taught me that certain vehicle types are mor likely to be driven by goons,either deliberate goons or ignorant goons,but goons nevertheless.
I don't trust goons,and as I can't distinguish which are and which aren't the goons all must,for my own safety be treat as potential goons,so I trust no one on the roads whatever vehicle they drive though some vehicles are more suspect than others.
Up to now it's kept me safe,I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with some people's optomistic outlook and their belief in human nature but I'll carry on spouting what my experience has taught me.
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pwa
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by pwa »

It seems to me that most drivers are good most of the time. But, yes, we have to assume that we may meet one who isn't. So we need to ride in a way that reduces our exposure to risk (we all have our strategies) without giving up on the cycling we enjoy. And, for me, the knowledge that most drivers are okay makes the roads feel like an acceptable place to be. If all roads felt hostile all the time I would probably take up surfing instead.
DevonDamo
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Re: SUV/Lorry/BMW/Insert/delete as appropriate Driving Too C

Post by DevonDamo »

Now that the thread has deviated from the OPs original point about whether different vehicle types exhibit different behaviour, I'll throw this in.

Above, Reohn describes a precautionary approach: assume the person behind will attempt a dangerous manoeuvre and take action to prevent that. I have a different approach - ride in such a way that signals I'm doing everything I can to let the following person get past.

I won't make any arguments in favour of my approach here - it's been done to death and never the twain shall meet. However, it would be nice to see some research done on whether and how the behaviour of the person on the bike affects the behaviour of people in following vehicles. At the same time, the opportunity could be taken to get a definitive answer to the old 'hi vis and helmets lead to closer overtakes' hypothesis. It would be a good research project for a psychology student if they could get it past the ethics committee.
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