Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Ellieb
Posts: 905
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Ellieb »

Or are you suggesting that the light phase for the lorry would remain green whilst the light changes to green for the carriageway perpendicular to it (the one with the cyclists on it)?

I don't know if we are even looking at the same video, but here goes:
At 14 seconds in, the cyclist is moving, across the white stop line and past the light on first light on the lamp post. It is at red. The boris bike has just cleared the stop line on their part of the junction. The lorry is half a second away. At this point, there is no evidence either way whether his light is red or amber. At the point the cyclist's light goes red & amber the lorry can be seen to a couple of feet short of the red stop line. Therefore the light is undeniably red when he goes through it - the red/amber will not come on unless the other light is red, but there is no evidence to see for how long it has been so .. I don't know how long it has been red for and neither do you. He is therefore undeniably commiting an offence. The cyclist is now well beyond the stop line and well past the first traffic light. He too is committing an offence. He is compounding that error by paying absolutely no attention to the traffic around him. This is why he cycles into the side of the lorry. It is, from a legal standpoint, immaterial whether the lorry goes through the red after it is red for 0.1 or 3 seconds, he has been guilty of an offence* by making no attempt to stop on amber. However, the reason why the incident happened is because the cyclist showed an incredible lack of awareness of the traffic. Let's get hypothetical here. It is is entirely possible that the lorry's light went to red at the same time as the cyclist's went red/amber. That is often how light phases work. If the lorry had beeen five feet further forward in that event , the driver would not have been going through a red (He still made no attempt to stop at amber), but the cyclist would still have gone into the side of him. In fact there is a good 15-20 feet of lorry for the bloke to avoid. To me the lorry driver is driving in a (sadly) averagely bad manner, the cyclist is cycling spectacularly poorly. There are quite a few cyclists in the video who are technically committing an offence at that junction. Only one manages to go into the side of the lorry.

* maybe TC can help out here, but I get the feeling that if someone goes through a red fractionally after it has changed, they are seen as less culpable by the courts (careless raher than dangerous?) than if they do so when it has been red for several seconds. It is noticeable that our boy on the bike starts moving 3 seconds before his light goes green.
Last edited by Ellieb on 3 Mar 2015, 3:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

beardy wrote:There is a set of written rules for us all to obey, when people start choosing which ones they like (and ban others for disobeying) and which one they dont like they may find somebody else wants to ban them for breaking those laws.

The inherent assumption being the safest option is to obey the laws which in turn assumes that others are both obeying them and driving in an alert and sensible way. Forgive me for suggesting that is just a tad idealistic and not necessarily the safest option.

As someone who has a more pragmatic viewpoint the only thing that really bothers me is "being too stupid in a built up area" because tbh if people actually engaged their brains all round not only would it be nicer out there but traffic would flow better and the majority of the highway code could be dispensed with.
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by beardy »

which in turn assumes that others are both obeying them and driving in an alert and sensible way.


Well somebody has to start the ball rolling there, it may as well be me.
Ellieb
Posts: 905
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Ellieb »

There is a set of written rules for us all to obey, when people start choosing which ones they like (and ban others for disobeying) and which one they dont like they may find somebody else wants to ban them for breaking those laws.


The point is, if you look at the video, there are quite a large number of law breakers in the video: Not only the two guys well forward of the junction, the camera bike, the bloke on his left and the motor scooter all have their front wheels over the stop line: Horrifying as it may seem, none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors! :shock: However, if that was the only thing that mattered we wouldn't be sitting here dissecting the video. The fact is, both the lorry and the cyclist could both have offended in the way that they did and nothing would have happened if the cyclist had just paid attention to what he was doing. If he had set off when he did, eyeballed the lorry and stopped accelerating, there would have been no incident. I suggest that sort of scenario happens many times an hour in London and nobody bats an eyelid because nothing happens.
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by beardy »

none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors!


It was a nice day wasnt it.
JimL
Posts: 200
Joined: 5 Nov 2013, 11:42am

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by JimL »

beardy wrote:
none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors!


It was a nice day wasnt it.


Beat me to it!!
danhopgood
Posts: 102
Joined: 20 Jan 2015, 5:16pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:...............
As someone who has a more pragmatic viewpoint the only thing that really bothers me is "being too stupid in a built up area" because tbh if people actually engaged their brains all round not only would it be nicer out there but traffic would flow better and the majority of the highway code could be dispensed with.


No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.
Ellieb
Posts: 905
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Ellieb »

It was a nice day wasnt it.


Street Lights are on as are the vehicle lights. Suggests to me that it is after lighting up time, so technically night & the camera may well be enhancing how much light there is available (I know mine does). In any case, you do know what I mean :wink:
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by beardy »

I know but you are only breaking the law when you are breaking it.

Cars are capable of doing over 30mph and I know they will do it in 30mph limits but you can not just give them tickets when they are not because you know they will. :lol:
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.

Having driven and ridden around London I can't say I know which version of the highway code is practised there. Certainly it isn't one I've read. ;)
Ellieb
Posts: 905
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Ellieb »

are capable of doing over 30mph and I know they will do it in 30mph limits but you can not just give them tickets when they are not because you know they will.

In point of fact this very thing happened to me when I was a motorbike courier. However, I won't dwell on a 30 year-old sense of injustice as it would drive me mad :twisted: I need to move on from it.
danhopgood
Posts: 102
Joined: 20 Jan 2015, 5:16pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.

Having driven and ridden around London I can't say I know which version of the highway code is practised there. Certainly it isn't one I've read. ;)


It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.

Which is bizarrely why rules exist - because we can't be trusted with our own judgement.

Obviously the ideal is to enforce them but since we're not then why is this system better than one where no rules exist? What seems to have happened instead is that people have created their own interpretation of the rules and apply them with a sense of self-righteousness.
With no rules (for example) you wouldn't be tempted to simply cycle through a green light without looking...

(This doesn't infer that I think having no rules is better btw).
reohn2
Posts: 45177
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:As someone who has a more pragmatic viewpoint the only thing that really bothers me is "being too stupid in a built up area" because tbh if people actually engaged their brains all round not only would it be nicer out there but traffic would flow better and the majority of the highway code could be dispensed with.


The problem being that some stick to the rules & laws,some stick to most of the rules & laws,some couldn't give a monkey's for the rules & laws.
The whole idea of rules & laws is that if(small word forgive me :wink: ) everyone sticks to them and plays the game things would move an awful lot better plus life on the road would far more predictable.
As it is we have organised chaos,and non or very little law enforcement,and penalties that are treated as an occupational hazard rather than something to make people think twice about breaking those rules & laws,and because road deaths and serious injury are a 'acceptable' levels nothing gonna happen soon.
The upshot of that is that the vulnerable road user who's at the bottom of the 'food chain' comes of worst by being bullied by the 'big misters' in their expensive vehicles who after all have paid their way :roll:
The law and rules only work when people obey them,when they don't,they don't, that's why rule No1 (all other road users are mad and have lunatic tendencies,therefore can't be trusted) is always to the forefront of my mind.

EDIT:- beaten to it :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
danhopgood
Posts: 102
Joined: 20 Jan 2015, 5:16pm

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.

Which is bizarrely why rules exist - because we can't be trusted with our own judgement.

Obviously the ideal is to enforce them but since we're not then why is this system better than one where no rules exist? What seems to have happened instead is that people have created their own interpretation of the rules and apply them with a sense of self-righteousness.
With no rules (for example) you wouldn't be tempted to simply cycle through a green light without looking...

(This doesn't infer that I think having no rules is better btw).


In a system with no rules how is there any comeback at all when someone behaves in a reckless way and hurts or kills an innocent other as the result of their selfishness? Which road users are those getting hurt or killed likely to be?
Post Reply