Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

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reohn2
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by reohn2 »

JimL wrote:
freeflow wrote:My understanding is that if the lights were on amber then this should not have happened until after the other lights had turned to red. On this basis the lorry is very clearly in the wrong and the cyclists not so much.


Agreed. Amber only shows when the other light is at red and the video clearly shows the lorry going through a red light but equally amber doesn't mean go and green means go if clear.


I was always taught that green means proceed with caution.

Neither had a green light,neither were proceeding with caution.

Add to that the cyclist is the most vulnerable road user and in madland UK is a prime target for bullying and abuse.
Factor into the equation rule No1:- all other road users are potential lunatics,likely to do anything at any given time and therefore are completely untrustworthy.
And rule No2:- things bigger than me when moving can potentially hurt or kill me,so give way to them even if they're totally in the wrong.
The cyclist is an idiot.
The truckdriver is a lunatic but a safe one :?
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bikerwaser
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by bikerwaser »

reohn2 wrote:
JimL wrote:
freeflow wrote:My understanding is that if the lights were on amber then this should not have happened until after the other lights had turned to red. On this basis the lorry is very clearly in the wrong and the cyclists not so much.


Agreed. Amber only shows when the other light is at red and the video clearly shows the lorry going through a red light but equally amber doesn't mean go and green means go if clear.


I was always taught that green means proceed with caution.

Neither had a green light,neither were proceeding with caution.

Add to that the cyclist is the most vulnerable road user and in madland UK is a prime target for bullying and abuse.
Factor into the equation rule No1:- all other road users are potential lunatics,likely to do anything at any given time and therefore are completely untrustworthy.
And rule No2:- things bigger than me when moving can potentially hurt or kill me,so give way to them even if they're totally in the wrong.
The cyclist is an idiot.
The truckdriver is a lunatic but a safe one :?



+ 1 on that Reohn2
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Audax67
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Audax67 »

Ellieb wrote:My money is on the cyclist was either very tired or perhaps drunk. Whatever it was there is no doubt his brain is in neutral. I doubt whether he rides like that on a regular basis


<gasp> Cyclists drink? Alcohol??? :shock:
Have we got time for another cuppa?
kwackers
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:The truckdriver is a lunatic but a safe one :?

When the truck driver jumped the lights there was nobody there (as evidenced by the cyclist running into the side of it rather than the truck running over him).

About 15 years ago a guy who lived near me was involved in a crash. He was waiting to turn right at a light controlled cross roads, his light changed to red whilst he was in the middle of the road and he turned after a car had gone through fully expecting the next oncoming car to stop at its red light - it didn't.
In similar ways to this it caused considerable debate as to who was to blame. My view was the guy turning right was at fault and when it finally went to court that exactly how they saw it too.

The basic premise is that it's just a junction with the lights offering precedence but precedence doesn't give you the right to pull into the path of another vehicle. The highway code is pretty clear on the meaning of precedence, your duty to avoid an accident and what a green light actually means.
Tonyf33
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Tonyf33 »

Lorry has clearly jumped the lights and by a long way, there is a very easy way to prove it giving the timing differential between the light changes.
Here are two stills, the lights are already on red/amber and the lorry is behind the stop line so MUST stop by law..there is absolutely no reason for him not to stop, he doesn't and so should be prosecuted.
The other shows that the cyclist hasn't gone past the light before it turns green..pretty clear cut in fact.
Yes the cyclist was a divvy for not braking but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..
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kwackers
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..

Take another look at the traffic going through the lights.

See the bus, taxi and bicycle going through the lights immediately before the lorry? There's an entire stream of traffic going through.
Green doesn't mean 'go' it means 'go if your way is clear'. It wasn't but he went anyway despite several vehicles passing through in front of him.

Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.

Another case I remembered. A few years ago a woman was jailed for 4 years for killing a cyclist who'd RLJ'd. The basic premise was she hadn't been paying attention and should have been able to stop. Once again 'green' doesn't mean 'go'.

Anyone who thinks the lorry driver is mainly at fault is guilty of thinking that 'green' means go - which is fair enough, it IS the modern way (at least judging by the amount of horn honking if a vehicle is late clearing a junction).
Tonyf33
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Tonyf33 »

kwackers wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..

Take another look at the traffic going through the lights.

See the bus, taxi and bicycle going through the lights immediately before the lorry? There's an entire stream of traffic going through.
Green doesn't mean 'go' it means 'go if your way is clear'. It wasn't but he went anyway despite several vehicles passing through in front of him.

Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.

Another case I remembered. A few years ago a woman was jailed for 4 years for killing a cyclist who'd RLJ'd. The basic premise was she hadn't been paying attention and should have been able to stop. Once again 'green' doesn't mean 'go'.

Anyone who thinks the lorry driver is mainly at fault is guilty of thinking that 'green' means go - which is fair enough, it IS the modern way (at least judging by the amount of horn honking if a vehicle is late clearing a junction).

So what? Sorry but there is a very large gap between the taxi & cyclist on the boris bike (whom very likely actually crossed on green but was going slowly that the lights changed) and the 3-4 second red light jumper in the HGV! He wwas on his own..or can you not see the large gap?
And amber means stop, red means stop, neither of which the lorry obeyed..in your eyes it would seem that going on a green is worse than not stopping on an amber or a red that has being on for 3+ seconds? :roll:
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Tonyf33 wrote:The other shows that the cyclist hasn't gone past the light before it turns green..pretty clear cut in fact.


He was well past the STOP line though - he hadn't passed the light on the other side of the road either, but the lights are indicators, the location of their instruction is not determined by their position, but by the road markings...
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BeeKeeper
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by BeeKeeper »

Vehicles continuing to cross at a junction as the lights have just turned red is very common. There is a roundabout at Plymouth (Marsh Mills) where this happens at virtually every change of the lights. The lights are green, traffic flows through, then the amber light comes on, traffic continues to flow through, then it goes to red and two or three vehicles will still keep going. At the other part of the junction the lights change to amber from red as the red comes on on the other lights. By the time it is green and traffic has started to accelerate away from rest the vehicles which have jumped the red light are clear - only just, but they have gone.

The point is at this junction it is so common it is more or less accepted practice. I suspect this may be the case at this London crossing and if you watched it now you would see vehicles still crossing as the red light comes on. In other words, what the lorry did was probably not that unusual.

A vehicle or cyclist crossing a green light at speed the moment it goes green risks colliding with vehicles still squeezing through on red, which seems to be what happened to the cyclist in the video. He anticipated the lights changing and crossed them the instant they changed - and came a cropper. The lorry shouldn't have been there but it was and I doubt this was an isolated example of a vehicle jumping red lights at this crossing. Starting from rest builds in a delay. Looking left and right also helps as there might be an emergency vehicle about to cross the red lights. Even in my car I always check there is nothing coming and never take a green light as a justification for driving forward. On my bike I am always doubly cautious. Thinking you are in the right can lead to rites being read. Or "Don't claim your rites" as it used to say as you entered Carlisle - and may still do but I haven't been back there for ages to check.
Last edited by BeeKeeper on 1 Mar 2015, 5:37pm, edited 4 times in total.
kwackers
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

Tonyf33 wrote:Sorry but there is a very large gap between the taxi & cyclist on the boris bike (whom very likely actually crossed on green but was going slowly that the lights changed) and the 3-4 second red light jumper in the HGV! He wwas on his own..or can you not see the large gap?
And amber means stop, red means stop, neither of which the lorry obeyed..

How big? I think you need to watch it again!
Taxi enters the junction at 14s, boris bike at 15s and truck at 16s. That's one second between each.

Tonyf33 wrote:in your eyes it would seem that going on a green is worse than not stopping on an amber or a red that has being on for 3+ seconds? :roll:

You're very defensive - wasn't you was it? ;)
Turn it around. Swap the truck and the bike, cyclist travelling across junction is killed by the truck who thought it OK to just go on green (or promise thereof) who's fault is it now?

In my eyes just moving forward without any regard for other vehicles and assuming you have right of way is frankly both stupid and criminal. I mean the guy missed a truck! A TRUCK! He probably has a driving license and he probably thinks when a light changes he should just charge across the junction in his car! Two people need points on their licenses there, but only one was responsible for the accident.
MikeF
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by MikeF »

If you look at the second picture above and the lights were working properly it shows the lorry jumped TWO sets of red traffic lights. :shock: The taxi driver and the last cyclist may have jumped one set, but assuming lights were OK, the lorry driver has clearly committed an offence. There's nothing to indicate the bus jumped any lights - it's way ahead.

And the biggest complaint about cyclists is .....................

[XAP]Bob wrote:He was well past the STOP line though - he hadn't passed the light on the other side of the road either, but the lights are indicators, the location of their instruction is not determined by their position, but by the road markings...
The cyclists are ahead of the stop line because there doesn't appear to be an ASL? Junction design fault?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
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JimL
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by JimL »

kwackers wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..

....
Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.
....
.


Eh?

The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.
kwackers
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by kwackers »

JimL wrote:The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.

No he didn't 'plough' through it all. He jumped it certainly, but there was nothing in front of him and therefore no danger to anyone. Not only that but he was following a Boris bike so probably doing not much over 10mph, hardly 'plowing'...
See it all the time. Is it wrong? Of course.

A junction with lights on is just a junction. You still have to make sure nothing is coming before you venture out. The lights are nothing but a mechanism for giving everyone a bite at the cherry. They're only dangerous if people don't treat them as junctions and instead consider the green light to mean 'go-for-it' (in contradiction to the HC. There's a good reason they add the rider 'if your way is clear' to their advice ;) )

Put simply if people are simply going to put their 'foot down' every time they get a green light then traffic light controlled junctions will become very dangerous - especially for slow moving traffic like bicycles that don't always have the time to clear the junction before the lights change.
Tonyf33
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by Tonyf33 »

kwackers wrote:
JimL wrote:The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.

No he didn't 'plough' through it all. He jumped it certainly, but there was nothing in front of him and therefore no danger to anyone. Not only that but he was following a Boris bike so probably doing not much over 10mph, hardly 'plowing'...
See it all the time. Is it wrong? Of course.

A junction with lights on is just a junction. You still have to make sure nothing is coming before you venture out. The lights are nothing but a mechanism for giving everyone a bite at the cherry. They're only dangerous if people don't treat them as junctions and instead consider the green light to mean 'go-for-it' (in contradiction to the HC. There's a good reason they add the rider 'if your way is clear' to their advice ;) )

Put simply if people are simply going to put their 'foot down' every time they get a green light then traffic light controlled junctions will become very dangerous - especially for slow moving traffic like bicycles that don't always have the time to clear the junction before the lights change.


I've read some nonsense in my time but that bit takes the biscuit!!
he did plough through, in fact he went through when his red light had being on for some time, that much is obvious, the vehicle was not part of a convoy or whatever other imaginary line of traffic, it was separated by a big gap. The HGV WAS a clear danger to other road users..are you really so blind to see what is clearly obvious to continue backing your version of events..deary me that's pitiful! :x
Yes the cyclist should have taken note of the law breaker and not gone so early/quickly BUT the lorry was the one breaking the law by far, not even close but going through a red when he had huge amounts of room to stop..
JimL
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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

Post by JimL »

Eh? ( to Kwackers)

The lorry driver has committed a criminal offence and as I said if he does it often enough he will kill someone.

He doesn't have the option to ignore the red light because the way is clear and anyway anyone going through the green light "will proceed with caution" and get out his way.

Just read your comment Tony and totally agree
Last edited by JimL on 1 Mar 2015, 7:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
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