Pinch points.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
reohn2
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by reohn2 »

Kwackers
Like other's have said hold primary when you need to,it is a battle of wills,it shouldn't be but it is and I'll bet you pass the vast majority of those close overtakers at the jam they're collected in at the junction.
If they're being stupid I usually stop and have quiet word,if they get bolshie at least they've been told.

On the RVM thing,I wouldn't ride without one these days,not only can you keep an eye on traffic behind even when you can't hear them,for whatever reason,but because I can see them they know I can if I move my head slightly when I'm using it.
Mine's one of these:- http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-bm-300g- ... 60051862uk
Sticking out on the end of drops,so it adds a leettle more width,not much but psychologically to a driver from behind the bike looks wider,every little helps :)
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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ArMoRothair
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by ArMoRothair »

661-Pete wrote:In France, where I frequently visit, these isolated pairs of bollards are much less common, instead you're more likely to encounter elongated 'islands' between the lanes, like here. Normally when cycling, it would make no difference whether you stayed in primary or secondary - the following motorist would just have to hold back!

But of course, in France, most cyclists are held in greater respect than their British counterparts. I wonder why? :? :)


I saw in Nantes this summer quite a few pinch points like the OP but the French have at least mitigated the problem by painting a half dozen bike icons through the centre of the pinch, in primary. I know we have to be wary of the supposed magic of paint but at least it does tell everyone, motorist and cyclist alike, that bikes are expected to use primary. And it costs nothing.

For example
Tonyf33
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by Tonyf33 »

Unless you have neck problems mirrors are a waste of time IMO.
Constant mirror checking means you're not as focused on what's in front of you, you're more likely to be 'moving out the way' given the propensity for vehicles to come within X feet (where X is your particular comfort zone). Those with mirrors if acting on what they see from a distance back will be frequently moving left and back again or even doing the wait on the left before turning right manoeuvre.
To me a mirror on a bike makes no logical sense whatsoever if you're able to turn your head and be able to control your bike at the same time.

As for pinch points/pedestrian refuge's, they can be a pain, they are often put in places where it makes more sense to not have one and there is no other thought for vulnerable road users. One I pass daily has a footpath leading to it, it's rarely used because there are more direct and safer crossing points for pedestrians nearby yet this pinch point has caused a great deal of alarm in the past when it was first put in place with vehicles wanting to cut right in at last second or right on your 'arris :evil:
The problem is that the road (40mph limit) is quite wide on both sides, lots of space for HGVs to come past but at the pinch point it narrows anyway and vehicles have to slow in any case as it's not far from an oval 'roundabout'. I've learnt to boss the road at an early point to make my intentions absolutely clear, in fact I take a right of centre position on the carriageway to make it look even less possible to make an overtake.
irc
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by irc »

Tonyf33 wrote:Constant mirror checking means you're not as focused on what's in front of you, ..........

To me a mirror on a bike makes no logical sense whatsoever if you're able to turn your head and be able to control your bike at the same time.



I'd say that doing a shoulder check takes longer than a glance at a mirror so a mirror gives me more time to focus on what is in front of me. I can check multiple mirrors in the cars and vans I drive while still keeping a proper watch to the front. I fail to see how using one mirror on my bike means my view to the front is compromised.


While you may make frequent shoulder checks most cyclists I see do not check over their shoulders unless changing lanes. So a mirror means more information. And I certainly don't move frequently left and back again. Doing that removes the advantage of a mirror as I always back up a mirror with a shoulder check when changing course both for my safety and to signal the change of course to following drivers. Typically when negotiating a series of pinch points I'll be in primary the whole way. No need to move left just to need another course change 50M further on.
Tonyf33
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by Tonyf33 »

One over the shoulder check does not equal multiple checks in a mirror, not even close, nor does it entertain the fact that you're more like to take avoiding action unnecessarily..every thread on here involving mirrors on bikes I've heard their users state " so I can take avoiding action".
You are massively more likely to make a manoeuvre that just isn't required at all, on a busy day you might well check your mirror a hundred times, most with a glance but others longer.
I know that judging distance isn't easy to absolutely state that a vehicle is going to hit you or come within X distance at the point of it overtaking you that one has to move out the way, no matter how well versed you are. Partly because you can't 100% predict what that vehicle will do from the point you look away & you are moving 'away' from the threat.

The amount of times that a vehicle comes into view that looks like they are on a collision course and you move to the left only for them to sail by with more width than you thought, I can guarantee that will happen using mirrors and at a given speed your reactions may not be enough if you are unfortunate enough anyway..
whichever it is you are trying to figure that out each and every time you look, ergo you are not thinking as much about what is going on in front of you.
A mirror gives you more to think about than is necessary, with one I reckon it puts more worry into cyclists, is distracting in general and could end up making a ride less pleasant.
reohn2
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by reohn2 »

IRC
Spot on

Tonyf33
You're wrong simple as.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Tonyf33
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by Tonyf33 »

reohn2 wrote:IRC
Spot on

Tonyf33
You're wrong simple as.

In YOUR OPINION...what bit of what I've written is false? NONE OF IT..SIMPLE AS
reohn2
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by reohn2 »

Tonyf33 wrote:In YOUR OPINION...


As someone who's ridden a long time both with and without a RVM :)

EDIT:-
Where we are in agreement though is:-
One over the shoulder check does not equal multiple checks in a mirror, not even close,
Last edited by reohn2 on 27 Feb 2015, 8:29am, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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kwackers
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by kwackers »

I should point out I usually ride with a mirror although currently don't (someone broke it at the station - probably trying to recover the lock they'd left on the stand... ;) )

IMO whilst I like having a mirror I'm more than a little doubtful of how useful they actually are when it comes to preventing accidents. They're not actually that great at even telling you how close someone will pass mainly because folk are often still moving out as they pass (or in this case cutting back in).

Handy but by no means essential IMO.
reohn2
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by reohn2 »

ArMoRothair wrote:
661-Pete wrote:In France, where I frequently visit, these isolated pairs of bollards are much less common, instead you're more likely to encounter elongated 'islands' between the lanes, like here. Normally when cycling, it would make no difference whether you stayed in primary or secondary - the following motorist would just have to hold back!

But of course, in France, most cyclists are held in greater respect than their British counterparts. I wonder why? :? :)


I saw in Nantes this summer quite a few pinch points like the OP but the French have at least mitigated the problem by painting a half dozen bike icons through the centre of the pinch, in primary. I know we have to be wary of the supposed magic of paint but at least it does tell everyone, motorist and cyclist alike, that bikes are expected to use primary. And it costs nothing.

For example


IME,there isn't the aggression toward cyclists and other vulnerable road users that there is in the UK,it seems to be a much more people centric society,even though car use is equal to the UK's
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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bikerwaser
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by bikerwaser »

i have a road where i live that is similar to this and i tend to indicate with a "thunbs up signal" and move into the middle of the road on the approach. the distance i do this is dependant on the speed of that part of the road.
the thing with the thumbs up is to thank them for something that they haven't actually offered but i have the feeling that it makes it feel a bit better. i think it's about communication.
i have the idea that most car drivers don't even understand the difficulties like these that cyclist have to struggle with on a daily basis. they actually think it's fine to squeeze past.
i say , politely communicate your needs and be firm and fair with it.

Regards

Bikerwaser
AlaninWales
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Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: Pinch points.

Post by AlaninWales »

Kwackers, as others have said (and you are experienced enough to know) there is nothing that will stop idiots driving like idiots; I feel for you (been there etc).

The things I have found help in these situations have been:
- Ride slightly wider than the usual primary (obviously not wide enough to encourage them to try to pass inside and push you onto the islands)
- Flat bars rather than drops (I use bar ends to give a varied hand position) with no end stops (grazed and rusty ends on a commuter steed help too)
- Wobble to increase your apparent width - not a wheel wobble, but the kind sometimes used hill climbing: Swing those flat bars in an inverted pendulum, this really worries the overtakers.
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Audax67
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by Audax67 »

reohn2 wrote:
ArMoRothair wrote:
661-Pete wrote:In France, where I frequently visit, these isolated pairs of bollards are much less common, instead you're more likely to encounter elongated 'islands' between the lanes, like here. Normally when cycling, it would make no difference whether you stayed in primary or secondary - the following motorist would just have to hold back!

But of course, in France, most cyclists are held in greater respect than their British counterparts. I wonder why? :? :)


I saw in Nantes this summer quite a few pinch points like the OP but the French have at least mitigated the problem by painting a half dozen bike icons through the centre of the pinch, in primary. I know we have to be wary of the supposed magic of paint but at least it does tell everyone, motorist and cyclist alike, that bikes are expected to use primary. And it costs nothing.

For example


IME,there isn't the aggression toward cyclists and other vulnerable road users that there is in the UK,it seems to be a much more people centric society,even though car use is equal to the UK's


In this area the authorities have done a lot of things that they consider to favour cyclists, but often just managing to put them in danger. This is a case in point. These things give motorists the impression that it's safe to enter the chicane while the cyclist is in the mini cycle-lane provided, but if the cyclist exits the lane while the car is still be in the pinch, the car is directed at the cyclist.

The one in my example is relatively wide-spaced and well-maintained, but in most villages they're tighter and the cycling part never gets swept and is full of forty kinds of débris.

I always take prime position and to hell with it.

These chicanes have become pretty well standard here over the last five years. A while back I was at an award presentation involving the regional council, and their safety officer asked me in a rather hearty fashion if I thought they could do anything more to help cyclists. My reply was "yes, get rid of all these new pinch points, they're deadly". End of conversation.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
irc
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Re: Pinch points.

Post by irc »

kwackers wrote:IMO whilst I like having a mirror I'm more than a little doubtful of how useful they actually are when it comes to preventing accidents. They're not actually that great at even telling you how close someone will pass IMO.


But they do tell you that a driver IS moving out or that a driver is waiting rather than squeezing between me and an oncoming car. The bottom line is I don't like blindly trusting my life to overtaking drivers. With a mirror I can watch them. Having more information about other road user's actions is a good thing.


I agree that most of the time it doesn't matter. It only has to prevent one crash to be worthwhile though. My mirror once saved me from being hit by a large American camper van that went through my roadspace at 60mph. The only reason I wasn't hit was I went off the road onto the adjacent gravel/sand/desert surface. In the UK It has alerted me to a few punishment overtakes before they happened and let me drift left to turn them into comfortable overtakes. Maybe not prevented any hits. I don't see a downside to using a mirror though so why not?
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Pinch points.

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote:............ I don't see a downside to using a mirror though so why not?

Nor me there are only pluses,unless you count folding the mirror up when not in use,and down to use a downside.I can't think of any others :?
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