Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Ellieb
Posts: 905
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by Ellieb »

When it comes to filtering on the left, I would say it is perfectly safe as long as you do it properly. It may well be a grey area legally, but from my perspective you just have to bear in mind that people may not expect you to be there and not 'see' you and so act accordingly. Since this is how I cycle anyway I don't see how filtering changes the way I approach road safety. It is certainly 'safer' than some of the undeniably legal things which I do, like turning 'right' on large trunk road roundabouts, and much safer than undeniably legal things which I don't, like cycling along busy Dual Carriageways with sliproads. The choice is mine. If you are personally uncomfortable with left hand filtering then don't do it. If you feel that you are aware on the potential hazards and can deal with them accordingly, then go right ahead. There is absolutely no need to ban filtering on the left. Like any cycling activity there is risk, if you are unaware of the risks then it is probably unacceptably hazardous, but let's not try and ban a manoevre which is realtively easy to perform safely.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by The fat commuter »

Ellieb wrote:When it comes to filtering on the left, I would say it is perfectly safe as long as you do it properly. It may well be a grey area legally, but from my perspective you just have to bear in mind that people may not expect you to be there and not 'see' you and so act accordingly. Since this is how I cycle anyway I don't see how filtering changes the way I approach road safety. It is certainly 'safer' than some of the undeniably legal things which I do, like turning 'right' on large trunk road roundabouts, and much safer than undeniably legal things which I don't, like cycling along busy Dual Carriageways with sliproads. The choice is mine. If you are personally uncomfortable with left hand filtering then don't do it. If you feel that you are aware on the potential hazards and can deal with them accordingly, then go right ahead. There is absolutely no need to ban filtering on the left. Like any cycling activity there is risk, if you are unaware of the risks then it is probably unacceptably hazardous, but let's not try and ban a manoevre which is realtively easy to perform safely.

I agree with most of the above.

Sometimes filtering on the left is perfectly safe. I'd even go as far as saying that on a straight wide road with no junctions where the filtering is taking place, it's a helluva lot safer than filtering between lanes of walking pace traffic on a dual carriageway (in my view) - as mentioned here: http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/filtering . I can see more danger from going between cars than passing a walking pace lorry on the left on a straight road with plenty of space.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by mjr »

It's no grey area: filtering on the left is perfectly legal.

ASLs are no longer seen as the cure-all but they're still creating new ones at repainting time when there's nothing better possible without rebuilding.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by beardy »

It's no grey area: filtering on the left is perfectly legal.


Overtaking with a car or motorcycle on the left is also "legal".

This is the highway code

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-t ... 162-to-169

not a statement of law.
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by landsurfer »

I don't think the statement of being legal or not is an issue.
If a vehicle turns left, wheather legal, un-sited or careless your still dead if you go under it.
Fine, state your right to filter.
But you'll still be dead after the HGV rolls over your head, helmet ot not.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by mjr »

The same applies to countless situations like.... say, picking one as an example... red light jumping. Where are all the calls saying people on bikes are at fault for not giving way to motor vehicles that pass red and no-one should expect the police to catch RLJers or cameras to be installed or similar?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by The fat commuter »

landsurfer wrote:I don't think the statement of being legal or not is an issue.
If a vehicle turns left, wheather legal, un-sited or careless your still dead if you go under it.
Fine, state your right to filter.
But you'll still be dead after the HGV rolls over your head, helmet ot not.

If you are riding along a straight road with no junctions, why would a vehicle turn left? Where are they going to turn, are they going to mount the pavement?
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The fat commuter wrote:
landsurfer wrote:I don't think the statement of being legal or not is an issue.
If a vehicle turns left, wheather legal, un-sited or careless your still dead if you go under it.
Fine, state your right to filter.
But you'll still be dead after the HGV rolls over your head, helmet ot not.

If you are riding along a straight road with no junctions, why would a vehicle turn left? Where are they going to turn, are they going to mount the pavement?


More to the point - a vehicle shouldn't move in any direction that it's driver can't see to be clear (note that this is alot stronger than can't see an obstruction)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by reohn2 »

The fat commuter wrote:If you are riding along a straight road with no junctions, why would a vehicle turn left? Where are they going to turn, are they going to mount the pavement?


They do that all the time,it's called parking,you mount the pavement and park with two wheels on it,everyone does it :?
And there's no need to look on the nearside......
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
The fat commuter
Posts: 292
Joined: 12 May 2014, 7:54pm
Location: The hilly side of Sheffield

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by The fat commuter »

reohn2 wrote:
The fat commuter wrote:If you are riding along a straight road with no junctions, why would a vehicle turn left? Where are they going to turn, are they going to mount the pavement?


They do that all the time,it's called parking,you mount the pavement and park with two wheels on it,everyone does it :?
And there's no need to look on the nearside......

They don't do it here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.39302 ... XnYv9g!2e0

This is one of the roads I cycle along on my way to work. Often traffic is stationary here. If it is stationary, I make the decision whether I can pass vehicles on the left. If I feel it's safe, I will. I won't keep passing them right up to the junction but will tuck behind a vehicle as I get there. There are many passing places like this on this road. To give an idea of the width of the lanes on this road, where the left hand lane splits into two after the speed camera, there is still a three to four foot wide lane to the left of traffic in the leftmost lane.
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by landsurfer »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
The fat commuter wrote:
landsurfer wrote:I don't think the statement of being legal or not is an issue.
If a vehicle turns left, wheather legal, un-sited or careless your still dead if you go under it.
Fine, state your right to filter.
But you'll still be dead after the HGV rolls over your head, helmet ot not.

If you are riding along a straight road with no junctions, why would a vehicle turn left? Where are they going to turn, are they going to mount the pavement?


More to the point - a vehicle shouldn't move in any direction that it's driver can't see to be clear (note that this is alot stronger than can't see an obstruction)


But your still dead if they pull left to answer their phone. . Don't do it. The point is; being right doesn't stop you from dying !
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Of course it doesn't, but they might run into the back of me, or reverse over me. I can't just spend life running away from heavy objects...

If someone on the pavement collapses, they shouldn't also be run over.

If someone follows official advice, as painted onto the roads I don't expect the trained and tested road users to kill them.

Note that this is not an attack on this, or any other driver, but the system which is clearly failing.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
SCIUTDV
Posts: 2
Joined: 22 Feb 2015, 11:04am

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by SCIUTDV »

SCIUTDV wrote:
SteveHunter wrote:An update from me now my brain has calmed a bit, and I've given my statement as well now so also know a few more facts.

This did not occur at a Building Site Access.

There are a lot of Building works occurring at the junction, and hoardings up alongside the road everywhere, but the accident did not take place at the entrance to the site, and I'm not aware that the lorry involved was evening going to that building site.

The accident occured at a normal junction with a left turn filter just before the traffic lights, that left turn filter is however hoarded on both sides and becomes very narrow.

The lorry approached the filter indicating left and started to manoeuvre, I was positioned behind the lorry in a central lane position as I was going straight across at the junction, the cyclist came down the left hand side of me and then went down the left hand side of the lorry as it was turning left.

Luckily for me I didn't see the actual impact as was past the lorry at the time, and to be honest I cannot remember if it had side rails or not, however I did find out today that this was the case and that it was all caught on camera as the lorry had CCTV camera coverage.


My name is John Hartfree and I work for the Metropolitan Police in the Serious Collision Investigation Unit at Merton Traffic Garage (the 'code' of which is TDV - thus my username created for this post of SCIUTDV !)

I am managing the investigation into this collision.

I wanted to send SteveHunter a message but forum rules won't let me do this as a 'new' member and the administrator has unfortunately not replied to my email - thus this post.

'Steve Hunter' I have no record of anyone of your name having spoken to my unit about this collision. Can I urge you to ring me as soon as possible to discuss this incident on our witness line of 020 8543 5157.

I would be grateful if anyone on here can drop Steve a PM to highlight this post to him and post below if they do this (so he doesn't get loads of messages).

If anyone else on here witnessed the collision or knows of someone that did please ring us or give them our phone number. I am also contactable via john.hartfree@met.police.uk

Thank you.



'SteveHunter' replied 'Noted, will contact you.'

Sadly SteveHunter has not contacted me, or any of my team investigating this sad incident.

I would urge 'Steve' to come forward and tell me exactly what you do - or do not - know.

You have posted potentially vital information here yet not come forward to speak to us. I am only interested in finding out the truth - no more, no less - and by not speaking to me I am potentially wasting valuable time trying to find you.

I note you have edited your posts removing some significant information and would like to know why.

Please speak to us and assist in order we can take a statement or rule you out of our enquiries.

I am forced to post this here as you have deactivated your personal messaging.

John Hartfree
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by kwackers »

SCIUTDV wrote:I note you have edited your posts removing some significant information and would like to know why.
<snip>
I am forced to post this here as you have deactivated your personal messaging.

I'm no detective but... :wink:
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Post by 661-Pete »

If we, and the police, have been taken for a ride on this forum, I'll want to know why. Especially being the thread starter.

[edit: removed reference]
Last edited by 661-Pete on 6 Mar 2015, 2:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Post Reply