Tipper crash in Bath

[DaveP]

Having previously viewed this incident with some degree of sympathy for the driver, I have to say, I am now wondering if I was mistaken.
Time will tell, of course. The simple fact that another person has also been arrested does suggest some possibilities. A failure to keep decent records of vehicles being defected by the drivers and those defects being properly resolved is one. Overloading is another. And some management type showing the new lad the best (ie. quickest ) route is a third - if your boss is leading the way, there's a heck of a lot of pressure to follow him "just this time" and sort it out later. IMO you probably need to be more than 19 to withstand it. Still...
We have had a free ranging discussion about it. I am just going to wait quietly now, and see what turns up in the court reports.

[hondated]

I have been a motorcyclist for 48 years and I didn't know that. As they say your never too old to learn.

Crikey!
I know that you used to be able to renew your provisional indefinitely - but 48 years is pushing it

Dave all I had to do was ride my bike around the block competently and not run the instructor over when he stepped into the road for the emergency stop at the age of 16.

[recumbentpanda]

I regularly ride Landsdown Lane, especially the lower, urban half. No opinion on the culpability or otherwise of the driver(s) in this awful incident, but a couple of points of context:

The lower half of LL has been a 20mph limit since the middle of last year. Like most of the 20 limits around Bath this is treated with utter contempt by local drivers.

If, as I believe they are, the drivers concerned were local, there is no way they would not be aware of the nature of LL.

The bottom end of LL is a roundabout, where most descending traffic takes a ninety degree left into Weston Village. Immediately after the roundabout, the road is restricted to single carriageway because of parking. Consequently, a queue of waiting vehicles can be on the exit road which is not visible until you are quite close to the roundabout. Another reason for going slow, but again, not much considered by local drivers.

But, someone who knows the road and has lost control of speed will be trying anything they can think of, because there is no escape once you hit that roundabout. Straight ahead is over the flowerbed, through railings and the front door of a church. Left is smack into oncoming traffic or the back of a queue, even if you can make the corner at speed. Right is more possible, but offers a range of stone walls, house walls, ditches and other obstacles unlikely to assist a controlled 'rolling stop'.

Basically, if you lose control where they did, it's panic stations.

[Mick F]

You obviously know the road and area well.
From what I heard on the radio, the truck was going to deliver to a building site nearby.

Did they have to go down LL, or is there a better way for a heavily laden HGV?
Is the real problem the fact that they were taking a short cut and should never have gone down LL?

I have no knowledge of the area, or any info about this ........... it's just a guess.

[Vorpal]

You obviously know the road and area well.
From what I heard on the radio, the truck was going to deliver to a building site nearby.

Did they have to go down LL, or is there a better way for a heavily laden HGV?
Is the real problem the fact that they were taking a short cut and should never have gone down LL?

Or just that they didn't do an adequate risk assessment (it doesn't have be a formal risk assessment, though that might be of help in a legal case), which might have found that they should go the long way round and come up LL?

[recumbentpanda]

Lansdown Lane is, alas, part of a popular short cut between the west side of Bath and the M5. It is regularly used by HGVs even now. The main alternative is the almost equally steep hill Lansdown Road, which ends in a four-way junction in the centre of town that has also been the scene of particularly harrowing HGV brake failure incidents in the past.

There are flatter routes, but they are longer and often more heavily trafficked, so the temptation to risk it remains strong.

There are some indications, as yet unconfirmed, that the issue might not have been loss of control over speed, so much as direction. "The driver had swerved to avoid an earlier accident." The fact that the truck ended up on its side suggests the possibility of a runaway 'speed wobble' caused by the driver over-reacting in panic, swerving left, right, left etc.

Given there is a high retaining wall on the left, I wouldn't have had much opportunity to get out of the way if I had been going up hill at the time. I shall be using my own alternative route until they ban the HGVs at least!

[Vorpal]

The men arrested have been released on bail
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-02-1 ... d-on-bail/

According to this article (which does have some errors in it), the brakes were found to be faulty, and the company, Grittenham Haulage , have been fine £5000 for failure to maintain the brakes. It also says,

The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction

which was reported before the men were arrested.
http://www.safebraking.com/category/bra ... orld-news/

[reohn2]

.........According to this article (which does have some errors in it), the brakes were found to be faulty, and the company, Grittenham Haulage , have been fine £5000 for failure to maintain the brakes. It also says,

The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction

which was reported before the men were arrested.
http://www.safebraking.com/category/bra ... orld-news/

IMHO that article should be taken with a pinch of salt,it seems to be a spoof in very bad taste

[Vorpal]

I don't think it's a spoof. It appears to be a collection of information about various brake failure incidents. But it's clear that not all of the information is correct, and nothing is substantiated.

So, yes, take it with a pinch of salt, but no, i don't think it is a spoof, more like rumour reported as fact.

[thirdcrank]

The truck was found to have eight faulty brakes, but the only successful charge against the company was a failure to maintain the brakes, resulting in a £5,000 fine.

The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction.

That bit must surely be garbage.

[661-Pete]

Or possibly it relates to a completely different incident, and they've got the stories mixed up? Adding to what TC says, the timescale is impossible.

[Mick F]

There are some indications, as yet unconfirmed, that the issue might not have been loss of control over speed, so much as direction. "The driver had swerved to avoid an earlier accident." The fact that the truck ended up on its side suggests the possibility of a runaway 'speed wobble' caused by the driver over-reacting in panic, swerving left, right, left etc.

Thanks for that.
It has the ring of truth about it.

Mrs Mick F heard the early Radio4 news about the incident, and told me she thought the newsreader said something about an accident that the lorry had to avoid. Not heard that bit of the story since.

[Vorpal]

Or possibly it relates to a completely different incident, and they've got the stories mixed up? Adding to what TC says, the timescale is impossible.

There can't be too many firms with the same name about, but I agree that it doesn't make sense.

[Vorpal]

Two men have been charged http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... tzy-steady

[Vorpal]

A third person has been charged. All three are due to appear in court on the 1st July

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-36498348