Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
User avatar
anniesboy
Posts: 789
Joined: 16 Feb 2007, 10:16pm
Location: South Oxon

Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by anniesboy »

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/11744 ... s_at_risk/

As James Dawton says “It is quite unusual for cyclists to have to give way when a light is on green.

Lets hope this arrangement does not become common place.

I confess I don't know this junction well and have never cycled there.
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by 661-Pete »

anniesboy wrote:http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/11744463.Signs_to_go_up_at_Worcester_Street_junction_that_places_cyclists_at_risk/

As James Dawton says “It is quite unusual for cyclists to have to give way when a light is on green.

Lets hope this arrangement does not become common place.

I confess I don't know this junction well and have never cycled there.

Well, of course much of Oxford has changed beyond recognition since the days when I lived there (1960s) and I don't recall how this junction lay then: most likely it was a straight cross-roads in those days which I must have cycled across several times.

But, looking at Streetview, it appears to be, now, merely a stretch of road with no junction at all for motorists, merely a sharp left bend and a ped-controlled crossing on the bend. And a cycle route access over to the right. Awkward layout, maybe, but I wouldn't have thought it unique. And as for "It is quite unusual for cyclists to have to give way when a light is on green." - well I do that all the time, whenever I'm at a cross-roads waiting to turn right. Everybody does (or at least, should do).

But if the route is heavily used by cyclists turning onto the cycles-only path, maybe there should be a cyclists-only green phase on the lights (i.e. an illuminated green bicycle symbol). As, again, there exists in other parts of the country. And even more so in the Netherlands.

Perhaps they ought to get a Dutch traffic engineer over to sort this one out...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by TonyR »

I liked the very perceptive comment to the article about the typical road planning process

1. Create a design with,, seemingly, only with the motorcar in mind.
2. Retrofit the design in an attempt to fit the needs of cyclists around the needs of the motorist.
3 .Ignore the fact it makes getting around less convenient for pedestrians.
jochta
Posts: 406
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 11:54am

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by jochta »

It's been remodelled recently. It's basically a 4-way crossroad traffic-light controlled junction now. But motorists still have to turn left from Hythe Bridge Street. Cyclists are permitted to go straight across into George Street despite all the signage indicating otherwise. The Google Streetview is out of date, the island with barriers is no longer there.

If you're travelling into the junction from Hythe Bridge Street although it looks straight on, cyclists are actually required to make a right turn into George Street and have to wait in the centre of the road for traffic coming towards them (actually from their left) as you would at a normal traffic light junction when you want to turn right. Of course most cyclists don't realise this and just go straight across not realising the light to their left is on green and cars will be coming straight at them. It's lethally dangerous as it currently stands.

It's a traffic light junction with a 90° bend in it.

What they propose to do is put a box in the centre of the road to make this clearer and include signage saying the left turn only is except cyclists. No idea what cyclists who want to turn right towards Park End Street are supposed to do as they are allowed to make that manoeuvre too!!

They've "improved" the junction without taking into consideration the manoeuvres cyclists are allowed to do. Motorists first, cyclists a distant second.

John
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by 661-Pete »

jochta wrote:The Google Streetview is out of date, the island with barriers is no longer there.
Ah, thanks for the clarification: my post doesn't really make sense then.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
AndyK
Posts: 1498
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm
Location: Mid Hampshire

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by AndyK »

jochta wrote:
They've "improved" the junction without taking into consideration the manoeuvres cyclists are allowed to do. Motorists first, cyclists a distant second.

John

To be fair... buses first, motorists second, cyclists third and pedestrians last. The old layout was much easier for motorists to understand and gave pedestrians a secure stopping point in the middle. The whole thing seems to have been done to allow buses to go straight ahead on Worcester Street - fair enough as an aim, but they didn't really think out how it would affect any of the other traffic.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by Vorpal »

There should not be a green signal from two directions at once, there. The users going straight and turning left from the same road should have their own signal phase.

:evil:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Bonefishblues
Posts: 11010
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by Bonefishblues »

I drove through this junction a week or two ago. Clear as mud, especially as the barriers have been removed. Terribly confusing for those that know it like me, so it must be even worse for the many thousands of tourists who hack into Oxford that way. I wonder if there are any vulnerable road users who need to be particularly cautious there...
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by iviehoff »

Vorpal wrote:There should not be a green signal from two directions at once, there. The users going straight and turning left from the same road should have their own signal phase.

:evil:

As jochta explained, it is bent junction with 2 side roads on the same side. So having green lights in 2 directions is fundamentally no different from the normal green light at a cross roads where opposite directions have green at the same time.

I went to Nuffield College for 2 years in the mid 80s, which if you twist the streetview around you can see the back entrance of it just south of the junction. I lived practically overlooking this junction for 2 years. In those days George St was a one-way street, and that was far worse than the present situation.

I think one has to recognise that there are multiple issues that have to be resolved. This is a key junction on the Oxford inner ring road. If you don't give it enough capacity to get the cars through, then you end up with huge amounts of standing traffic. On balance, it could actually better for the cyclist to have to deal with this junction and to have less standing traffic to have to share the roadspace with elsewhere. I last walked past this junction, to revisit Nuffield, about 3 years ago and my general impression was that the road situation was much better than I'd seen it in the past, but that was 3 years ago. I'm going to revisit Nuffield again in a few weeks time and will thus be able to see what it looks like now.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by Vorpal »

I understood that cyclists going from one road have more options (e.g. to go straight or turn), where car drivers can only turn left(ish). Green from two directions at once would be okay, if all the traffic from that road had to turn. But because only motor vehicles do, cyclists have to give way to motor vehicles going on green from the other road. Or have I completely misunderstood what is happening?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by iviehoff »

Vorpal wrote:I understood that cyclists going from one road have more options (e.g. to go straight or turn), where car drivers can only turn left(ish). Green from two directions at once would be okay, if all the traffic from that road had to turn. But because only motor vehicles do, cyclists have to give way to motor vehicles going on green from the other road. Or have I completely misunderstood what is happening?

Cyclists are in effect turning right, so have a conflicting line of traffic coming the other way, usual situation when you are turning right. The stuff stops eventually and you proceed.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by Vorpal »

iviehoff wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I understood that cyclists going from one road have more options (e.g. to go straight or turn), where car drivers can only turn left(ish). Green from two directions at once would be okay, if all the traffic from that road had to turn. But because only motor vehicles do, cyclists have to give way to motor vehicles going on green from the other road. Or have I completely misunderstood what is happening?

Cyclists are in effect turning right, so have a conflicting line of traffic coming the other way, usual situation when you are turning right. The stuff stops eventually and you proceed.

Maybe it's not so clear to someone who doesn't know what it used to look like? I know someone who visited recently. He was under the impression that he was effectively going straight & having to give way to cars that were turning.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by iviehoff »

Vorpal wrote:
iviehoff wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I understood that cyclists going from one road have more options (e.g. to go straight or turn), where car drivers can only turn left(ish). Green from two directions at once would be okay, if all the traffic from that road had to turn. But because only motor vehicles do, cyclists have to give way to motor vehicles going on green from the other road. Or have I completely misunderstood what is happening?

Cyclists are in effect turning right, so have a conflicting line of traffic coming the other way, usual situation when you are turning right. The stuff stops eventually and you proceed.

Maybe it's not so clear to someone who doesn't know what it used to look like? I know someone who visited recently. He was under the impression that he was effectively going straight & having to give way to cars that were turning.

That's the whole issue, poor signage means it isn't clear if you don't know it.
Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 2030
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

I believe OCC are going to paint a little 'turning island' for cyclists on the road, complete with give way marker. It's a bit "putting lipstick on a pig", though.

(My personal opinion is that Oxford would be much better served by demolishing the Student Union building at the northern edge of the bus station, so that buses could enter and leave by the northern half of Worcester Street and Gloucester Lane. That would open up a whole raft of opportunities to remove motor traffic entirely from city centre roads - at the least George Street and Magdalen Street. But it'll never happen.)
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides
chocjohn9
Posts: 300
Joined: 20 Mar 2012, 10:07pm
Location: Sunny Belgium

Re: Signage concerns at a junction in Oxford.

Post by chocjohn9 »

Relax! This is the third time in 8 or 9 years that they have dug this section up and changed the layout, so it will not last...
Next the OCC are having yet another go at the station "roundabout", 300m further down the road. This, again, will be their 3rd attempt in 5 or 6 years... although this is unnecessary because the junction worked very well, for one day, when all the traffic lights stopped working ....
Post Reply