Group rides - maximum numbers...

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westofsouth
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Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by westofsouth »

Due to ride with a local cycling group this weekend. So far 46 people have enlisted for this ride on public roads. However, I will probably pull out because I consider the numbers to be too high. Safety of the participants and other road users could become an issue.

What do others consider to be a sensible and manageable maximum number of participants in a group ride?
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mjr
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by mjr »

It depends how many organisers are there to help if the group gets split up by traffic (or deliberately splits up into sixes to discourage motorists doing silly overtakes on busy roads). I've been on two-person group rides, open-road free-form rides of several dozen, open-road signposted rides of several hundred (including the Weston Hospicecare Strawberry Jam near you - the Bristol Big Bike Ride is pretty big too, isn't it?) and closed-road rides with thousands of people. As long as you're not trying anything silly like pacelines or a tight peloton, why would it get less safe with more riders?

If you've never done a large group ride and it's a relaxed one, give it a try. It's really something beautiful if done well.
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westofsouth
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by westofsouth »

There are likely to be narrow roads and impatient drivers. Previous outings with this group suggest that the leader is likely to be inexperienced in the role, and may not even appoint a backmarker. Also a number of the riders are likely to be novice/unaccustomed to riding in a large group.
Certainly, when I lead, about 15 maximum seems to be the right number.
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661-Pete
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by 661-Pete »

Well - someone whom I'm reminded not to refer to too explicitly - is most certainly of the 'bigger is better' persuasion. When he started his series of rides, back in the mid 2000's, I joined in a few of them and numbers were generally around 25. It was all very friendly and convivial, though even with those few we had a few instances of 'lost' riders.

But in the intervening years, the driving force has been to pile on the numbers, and last time I looked, they were running to well over 100. Unless the organisation has got a whole lot more professional in the way it manages such a group, I can imagine there would be problems. But I'm out of it.

Based on these experiences, I'd say 25 to 30 sounds comfortable....
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MLJ
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by MLJ »

Our local CTC group splits the ride once there are more than 12, even if only to have a 100m gap between groups.
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mjr
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by mjr »

Ah well if you already have experience of that organiser going a bit wrong, that's a bit different. Withdrawing would be understandable, or you could contact the organiser and offer to be a backmarker or front of a split on any busy sections. If they're up the front, unobservant, unused to leading a larger group or whatever, they might not have even noticed any problem.

It's fine either way. On a good day, I've even ridden up to an organiser to ask where we're heading :lol: - mostly it's just being nosy but one time we were off following a Garmin-fart so it did actually help. On a dark day, I would just say goodbye and ride off home.

I think I know the group 661-Pete is describing. I've looked at a couple of their rides before realising who was organising but not gone because I've been scared by the mix of disorganisation on some aspects that I think matter but control-freakery on others that I think don't. It does not share the free-wheeling approach of similarly-named rides in other cities (there might be others in London that I've not found yet).
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by mjr »

I've just realised that KLWNBUG probably has more organisers available on rides than most, partly because it tries to encourage and develop anyone who's interested. I think the highest ratio may be 5 in a group of 8 (in winter, when fewer riders turn out and it tends to be the more experienced ones) although I definitely remember 1 in 2 and 2 in 4 a few times when ride conditions have been inhospitable (I remember once, 6 still showed up to ride in 40mph winds... another time, 6 in falling snow...).

I think there are 9 in total seen on rides in 2014 (apologies if any BUGsters are reading this and I'm counting wrong), so it should handle 46 comfortably if we know they're coming - if stretched to splits of 12 like mentioned above, then that's nearly 100. If that ever happens, I think it would need to be visiting an event, having a picnic or splitting between several cafes/pubs!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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squeaker
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by squeaker »

mjr wrote:It depends how many organisers are there to help if the group gets split up by traffic (or deliberately splits up into sixes to discourage motorists doing silly overtakes on busy roads).
You mean 2 x 3s? Personally I get uncomfortable in any group larger than a car's footprint on many roads (and uncomfortable when I see large clumps of cyclists effectively forming a moving road block - your 'silly overtakes' remark relates). But I agree that the overall number is less relevant, and a large ride eg IoW Randonnee, does mean that the motons know to expect cyclists in large numbers...
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mjr
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by mjr »

squeaker wrote:
mjr wrote:It depends how many organisers are there to help if the group gets split up by traffic (or deliberately splits up into sixes to discourage motorists doing silly overtakes on busy roads).
You mean 2 x 3s? Personally I get uncomfortable in any group larger than a car's footprint on many roads (and uncomfortable when I see large clumps of cyclists effectively forming a moving road block - your 'silly overtakes' remark relates). But I agree that the overall number is less relevant, and a large ride eg IoW Randonnee, does mean that the motons know to expect cyclists in large numbers...

I mean sixes, which may be arranged 2x3 (as small as some cars, but not making it particularly easy to overtake) or may be a line of six, or something in between.

Taking the lane (which I think is what is meant by "effectively forming a moving road block") can be uncomfortable for whoever is on the back right but it's safer than helping a bad motorist to think they can squeeze past without changing lane or on a blind bend/brow, isn't it? It certainly seems in line with the advice in Bikeability Levels 2 (Understand where to ride on roads being used) and 3 (Cycling in groups - optional).

I don't think some drivers expect any other road users. I'm often astonished there are still people who drive along the road sections of National Cycle Routes 1 and 11 at weekends and seem surprised to meet riders - but then, I guess there are some who seem to object to not being able to do 80 along the A47 through the villages and sit on my car's back bumper (I stick to 60) until the dual carriageway.
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Elizabethsdad
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by Elizabethsdad »

On the local news down here it has just been announced that cycling events in the New Forest are going to be capped to 1000 riders
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jezer
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by jezer »

I read about that. As a large club we sometimes get around 40 riders on our Sunday runs, although we do split into smaller groups to ease congestion on the road and at the cafe stop. I assume motorists in the New Forest will also be resticted to 1,000 at any one time :shock:
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squeaker
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by squeaker »

mjr wrote:I mean sixes, which may be arranged 2x3 (as small as some cars, but not making it particularly easy to overtake) or may be a line of six, or something in between.

Taking the lane (which I think is what is meant by "effectively forming a moving road block") can be uncomfortable for whoever is on the back right but it's safer than helping a bad motorist to think they can squeeze past without changing lane or on a blind bend/brow, isn't it? It certainly seems in line with the advice in Bikeability Levels 2 (Understand where to ride on roads being used) and 3 (Cycling in groups - optional).


That's where I disagree with Bikeability Level 3 if applied to more than 2 riders cycling together:
Although cyclists may ride two abreast, trainees should be aware that this may aggravate some other road users. When riding two abreast, trainees should make extra effort to communicate with following traffic and be aware when they might need to move back into single file.

Using the Highway Code guidance, when driving a car and overtaking a cyclist I should leave as much room as when overtaking another car (or words to that effect). Which to me is somewhere between 1 and 2m gap. Assuming said cyclist is not riding in the gutter, that's going to mean moving to some 3m away from the kerb line, ie most of the vehicle into the oncoming lane on most non-trunk roads.
Accordingly, the shorter the vehicle I have to overtake, the less time I will spend in the oncoming traffic lane; hence my dislike for continuous long lines of 'singled out' cyclists! I'd also add that a single line invites a 'squeezed' overtake (which you seem to agree with?). But then I spend a lot of time on non A-roads.
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mjr
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Re: Group rides - maximum numbers...

Post by mjr »

We spend a lot of time on "single and a half track" non A roads and on long straights, which is where a line is often easier. I'm not sure you're disagreeing severely with bikeability.
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