ASL and motorcyclists

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Slow Loris
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Slow Loris »

kwackers wrote: In practise these days I find you simply overtake half a mile of traffic and you might get a chance to insert yourself into the stream a few tens of yards back and perhaps wait for an extra light change or more likely the only place with a gap just happens to be the front of the queue.


That's usually been my experience. Most vehicles at the very front have someone right up their rear bumper so there's no space to insert myself in the queue until they start moving.

kwackers wrote: I must admit on a bicycle on more than one occasion I've had a driver take enormous exception even to the point of partially overtaking, pulling alongside and forcing me back to the kerb whilst on the horn and gesticulating wildly!


Thankfully, I don't seem to face aggression when rejoining – I get this behaviour when I'm already in the traffic queue :? :lol:

kwackers wrote: So in that respect I'd disagree that as a general rule filtering into moving traffic is safer than stopping ahead of the stop line and taking primary.


I'd be wary of passing the stop line (ahead of an ASL if there is one) unless the junction is very familiar, as you could find yourself in the path of a turning HGV. One of my regular junctions (no ASL) is on a bus route where anyone over the stop line can risk a collision – I try to warn any cyclists/motorcyclists I see there. Personally, I feel the safety of ASLs is, at best, limited, and at worst, can be dangerous. There's one near me which I will never use as it conflicts with school buses turning into that road – a particularly stupid, irresponsible design :evil: .
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kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

[XAP]Bob wrote:If the queue starts to move as you are filtering then you can normally slot into a gap that is opening before the car behind has actually started.

Normally, but not always. IMO it's not always the safest thing to do, you have split attention between the car in front that's moving (and might suddenly stop) and the vehicle behind as you move into the gap. The aforementioned reduction in braking distances can potentially result in a bit of unpleasantness.

However it does generally happen that on a motorcycle you'll spot a decent sized gap somewhere in the queue where a particularly slow driver has taken their time to get going, quick blip of the throttle and you're in. It's not guaranteed though and obviously if the traffic is moving then it's irrelevant to this discussion since you're not going to be looking at placing yourself in the ASL.
The main reason you'd end up in a ASL is because you've overtaken a fairly long line of stationary bumper to bumper vehicles.
Vorpal
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Vorpal »

The only times I can recall having trouble slipping into the flow of traffic were when car drivers seemed to deliberately block my attempts to do so. While I haven't had the experiences you have, I have had drivers who I believed were aware I was there and wanting to move into a gap (eye contact, etc.), close a gap beween them and the next cars. Maybe it wasn't always a deliberate attempt to block me (people do stupid things without malice :roll: ), but it seemed so. Once you've lost a couple of those battles, usually the only safe option left is to go up to the front of the queue.
Last edited by Vorpal on 14 Jan 2015, 4:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: correction :)
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whoof
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by whoof »

I also ride a motorcycle as well as bicycle.
A couple of points regarding ASL in general and motorcyclists.

It was my understand that the CTC did a freedom of information search and no police force had ever issued a fine for a motor vehicle entering an ASL, the Met didn't even know it was an offence.

I do object when I'm in an ASL box and a motorcyclist filters down the right and then positions themselves in front of me. Not because they are causing me an obstruction but thier exhaust is now pumping fumes straight inot my face.

I was once sitting at a junction in the centre of an ASL and a motorcyclist pulled up on my right. When the lights went green we both moved forward. However I was going straight on but he want to go left (and wasn't indicating) we almost collided had to stop and he almost fell of his bike. He was adamant including a lot of expletives that what he had done was reasonable and I my riding had been outragous.
bryce
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by bryce »

It's better for a motorbike to enter an ASL than block the filtering gaps preventing cyclists filtering up.

It's common to have a choice between doing what's legal, safe, and considerate when on two wheels. I've often been stuck behind a motorbike when filtering when they chose legal over safe and considerate.

Then there's the packs of motorbikes that speed from ASL to ASL rendering them useless for cyclists.
beardy
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by beardy »

Unless you can see that the entire route of your planned filter is clear, then that is a choice that you make when you start filtering, to go into the uncertain. You can not blame somebody just for being there (legally) in your way. Next it will be anger at people being in the way when they feel obliged to obey the speed limit.
That is rather like expecting cyclists to ride illegally on the pavement to aid traffic flow. In all my years of filtering, it has never crossed my mind to blame somebody for filtering ahead of me in my way and for stopping where I would continue.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by [XAP]Bob »

But to be obliged to stop where it wouldn't be normal, and actively prevents someone else from taking the position ascribed to them for safety reasons is somewhat perverse.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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bryce
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by bryce »

beardy, no blame from me for taking the legal option, or the considerate option when they differ. Personally, I'd prefer they took the safe (for them) option so long as it was either legal or considerate.
beardy
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by beardy »

[XAP]Bob wrote:But to be obliged to stop where it wouldn't be normal, and actively prevents someone else from taking the position ascribed to them for safety reasons is somewhat perverse.


I would say that it passively prevents others from taking their chosen position. Also it is perfectly normal for me to stop at the white line for traffic lights and always has been.

There are many occasions when it may be good if people actively disobeyed the law in preference to the more dangerous option that normally occurs (but shouldnt) such as crossing double white lines while overtaking, or going the wrong side of central reservations instead of squeezing through.
Yet we do have the laws and should default towards obeying them.
kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

beardy wrote:I would say that it passively prevents others from taking their chosen position. Also it is perfectly normal for me to stop at the white line for traffic lights and always has been.

The only way to ensure there are no issues is to ban filtering.
These days though queues are often so long you've no idea what happens further up so you *may* be able to rejoin traffic or you *may* simply have to pass the stop line and stop in front of the lead vehicle and there *may* be an ASL or there *may* not. Often the queues continue right through the junction and for several junctions further up to boot. IME the one thing you should never do unless forced to is stop alongside a vehicle, whether you're on a motorcycle or a bicycle.

I reckon I've done 500k miles on motorcycles over the past 30 years and never had an issue doing it so I doubt it's particularly dangerous, nor have I to my knowledge ever blocked anyone.
The only thing ASL's change is they significantly increase the likelihood of a self-righteous mouthy cyclist shouting the odds. Hasn't happened yet, but I fully expect it at some point... ;)
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meic
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by meic »

IME the one thing you should never do unless forced to is stop alongside a vehicle, whether you're on a motorcycle or a bicycle.


I have a similar mileage on motorcycles and I have always stopped alongside vehicles when there was room at the white line. The only incident I ever had was when a car crept forward and parked on my foot. :lol: If they started engine revving and preparing to race, I would match them with the posing then let them race off and slip into the gap behind them. :mrgreen:

You are a bit of a habitual RLJ and I am a bit of a habitual obeyer of red lights. I dispute that the safety issue is strong enough to justify breaking the law and then taking advantage of such an illegal move to position yourself infront of the vehicle at the front of the queue.
If the act of filtering is to have legitimacy for motorcyclists it should not be a form of queue jumping where you position yourself in the car drivers path but a parallel system where you keep to your own interstitial lane out of their way.

The situation is a little different on a cycle, pragmatically because you lack the speed and acceleration and morally because cyclists should receive preferential treatment to help alleviate the problems caused by motor vehicles.
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kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

meic wrote:I have a similar mileage on motorcycles and I have always stopped alongside vehicles when there was room at the white line. The only incident I ever had was when a car crept forward and parked on my foot. :lol: If they started engine revving and preparing to race, I would match them with the posing then let them race off and slip into the gap behind them. :mrgreen:

You assume the guy behind doesn't also want to partake of a bit of Traffic Light Grand Prix. Wouldn't be the first time - wouldn't be the first time I've seen a bike rear ended by another overexcited motorcyclist who was sat behind and thought they too would whizz off the line.
Then of course there's the left turn - how do you turn left when you're sat alongside the right side of a car? (I'm assuming you haven't filtered along the left), obviously the 'correct' thing to do is to sit there with your left indicator on and rely on the good nature of your fellow motorists - I'm sure that works at least 80% of the time.

No sorry, I'm pretty certain the safest place to be is at the front of the queue directly in front of the lead vehicle.
meic wrote:You are a bit of a habitual RLJ and I am a bit of a habitual obeyer of red lights. I dispute that the safety issue is strong enough to justify breaking the law and then taking advantage of such an illegal move to position yourself infront of the vehicle at the front of the queue.

A manoeuvre that I see performed by police motorcyclists all the time and one I've performed when there's been a police car at the front. I've never been prosecuted yet so I'm inclined to assume that it's probably less of an issue than you seem to want to make it.
meic wrote:If the act of filtering is to have legitimacy for motorcyclists it should not be a form of queue jumping where you position yourself in the car drivers path but a parallel system where you keep to your own interstitial lane out of their way.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Filtering IS queue jumping by virtue of the fact you don't stay in a your self made lane but re-enter traffic flow further up. That's the whole point of it.
meic wrote:cyclists should receive preferential treatment to help alleviate the problems caused by motor vehicles.

Hmmm, I think I'd be inclined to disagree with that as a statement. I think cyclists should receive preferential treatment to improve their safety and to make them 'competitive' as a form of transport, not sure how that squares with "problems caused by motor vehicles".
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meic
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by meic »

It is over thirty years since I took my advanced test. I dont know if they have relaxed the standards since then but crossing the white line would be a certain fail. Going up the right hand side of the traffic, expecting to do a left hook turning left in front of them would have you put in for some severe remedial instruction.

I do KNOW very much that the AIM is not the be all and end all of all motorcycling good practice but it was in my case taught and examined by Police Class 1 riders.

In order to turn left at the end of a traffic line, I would filter on the left hand side, correctly for a short distance (or incorrectly as I had my naughty side too) for a long distance. Though in practice it was all very opportunistic taking whichever option came along. Ending up on the right when intending turning left would have been as a result of a failure to manage what I should have done and I may have very sheepishly crossed the white line and gone across the front of the traffic to get myself out of a mess.

In short as another experienced motorcyclist, I do not feel that the safety excuse is acceptable as a justification for such acts. Also I disagree on moral grounds about queue jumping, my whole self justification for filtering is that I will continue to ride "apart" from the queuing traffic. It would be quite understandable of cars to react aggressively to queue jumping. Then we just get a white line jumping race where everyone gets as far forward as possible to prevent somebody leap frogging them.

No, I much prefer where we have a white line drawn for people to stop at and for the Police to prosecute those who cross it.
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kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

meic wrote:In order to turn left at the end of a traffic line, I would filter on the left hand side, correctly for a short distance (or incorrectly as I had my naughty side too) for a long distance. Though in practice it was all very opportunistic taking whichever option came along. Ending up on the right when intending turning left would have been as a result of a failure to manage what I should have done and I may have very sheepishly crossed the white line and gone across the front of the traffic to get myself out of a mess.

Why is it a failure? You may have overtaken several hundred yards of stationary vehicles with no opportunity to move across - plus IME filtering on the inside is a big NO. I'm unsure how you can consider it to be safer - I try to avoid it even on a bicycle!
meic wrote:Also I disagree on moral grounds about queue jumping, my whole self justification for filtering is that I will continue to ride "apart" from the queuing traffic.

You're fooling yourself. Seriously, are you claiming that once you start you filtering you never rejoin traffic flow? :wink:
It's queue jumping, pure and simple.
However what is interesting is that most motorists don't see it as queue jumping, precisely because you don't get in their way. Do it on a bicycle though and most think it is...
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meic
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by meic »

kwackers wrote:
meic wrote:Also I disagree on moral grounds about queue jumping, my whole self justification for filtering is that I will continue to ride "apart" from the queuing traffic.

You're fooling yourself. Seriously, are you claiming that once you start you filtering you never rejoin traffic flow? :wink:
It's queue jumping, pure and simple.
However what is interesting is that most motorists don't see it as queue jumping, precisely because you don't get in their way. Do it on a bicycle though and most think it is...


I only rejoin the traffic stream when it is flowing, not while there is a queue to jump or be jumped in.

I have no interest in a long and protracted argument over this, too much of that tit for tat on this forum, I think we have both adequately stated our positions on the issue. Feel free to have the last word if you wish. I will only reply if I have changed my mind and suddenly agree with you that a free for all is better than obeying the ordered system.
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