ASL and motorcyclists

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philehidiot
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ASL and motorcyclists

Post by philehidiot »

I am treading my toe into shark infested waters, I feel. I am a motorcyclist.

I recently watched a video whereby a motorcyclist had been filtering but had to stop for a bus and was causing an obstruction - he refused to move into the clear ASL box and as a result caused a minor obstruction for 30 seconds or so and got a dirty look. Not a massive issue but access to the ASL box is something that is often safer, often very useful (opening up better filtering opportunities where you're not jousting with cars) but is punishable if the right copper sees you.

Myself I will filter to the front and only use the ASL box if it increases my safety doing so and I try and leave a nice gap between myself and any cyclists in there. BUT I do use it where it makes life safer.

I am not trying to promote a "flame war" or anything but I am trying to ascertain two things:

1) What are the safety benefits for motorcyclists not being allowed in the ASL box? Usually we arrive from the right hand side and cyclists arrive from the left so we're not mixed up that much (I'm in Leeds rather than the more manic situation of London) and the motorbikes will be out of the way before any problems can occur (my view - I am expecting it to be challenged).

2) Would people object to motorbikes being allowed to use the ASL box and what are the reasons for this?

As I said above, I am not trying to provoke an argument, just a discussion - this an element of law that I do not understand (as from my point of view I'm out of the way before any problems can be caused) and feel as though I will only get if I hear it from your side along with some of your experiences. Please don't shout at me, I'm trying to learn and understand.
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Vorpal »

Cyclists are safer filtering on the outside, too. I don't generally filter on the inside. But I don't like ASLs, either, and prefer to rejoin the flow of traffic before I reach a junction. I have used them from time to time, however, and I don't mind sharing with motor bikes or scooters whose riders are polite about it, as long as there is plenty of space.
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beardy
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by beardy »

Phil,
How do you feel about the idea of cyclists ignoring the ASL and continuing through the junction, when they feel it is safe to do so and they do it leaving a nice gap between them and any crossing traffic?
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meic
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by meic »

I am a motorcyclist of many years and hundreds of thousands of miles. I also did many years as a motorcycle city rider, (the ones who do multidrops and pick-ups in the inner city limits all day under radio control).
In over thirty years of motorcycling, I have always stopped behind the white line alongside the cars and waited for the green light (even if they didnt). The introduction of ASLs hasnt changed anything there (except often there is now a car wholly infront of me at the white line).

If my presence at a stop line with a redlight in front of me causes somebody an obstruction, I may feel like rolling ahead of it or I may feel they can just wait like they are supposed to, I would not see it as a justification for violating the white line on the other 999 times out of a thousand.

Of course anybody can go into the ASL at red if they want to. They just need to use a cycle instead of their motorcycle. As my motorcycle uses a gallon of petrol for every fifty miles that I ride it, (spewing noisy poison out of its pipes) it seems perfectly reasonable that there should be such things to incentivise use of human powered vehicles.

The box may be empty when I arrive with my motorcycle but what happens when a cyclist arrives and I am filling it up or blocking their way in?

Finally like many cyclists, I dont bother much with ASLs, especially as they often already have a motorvehicle (normally not a motorcycle) in them already. Which means that I do exactly what you suggest and illegally cross the white line and take up a position ahead of the car/van/bus/HGV. :lol:
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by [XAP]Bob »

1) Although I enter ASLs from the left (where such a facility exists) I do so by filtering on the outside, then cutting across behind the first vehicle to swing round without breaking the "first stop line".

2) Intrinsically, no objection - most of the same safety issues apply. However....a M/Cyclist also has the power and acceleration to be a normal part of traffic flow, even across a junction - so there is a whole family of issues which aren't the same, and I think that those are significant wrt an ASL junction.
I have been in ASls with polite M/cyclists, and have no problem - I've also seen less good behaviour... As with anything...
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661-Pete
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by 661-Pete »

Welcome to the forum.

The first thing to say is, re:
philehidiot wrote:I am treading my toe into shark infested waters, I feel. I am a motorcyclist.
...remember that sharks very rarely attack humans (unless you've been watching Jaws). And as you will discover, plenty of the folk on this forum are also motorbikers (I am not one, I'm afraid).

The whole thing about ASLs is that they are poorly conceived and the law attaching to them is unclear, to say the least.

If an ASL zone consists of two solid lines painted across the road, without any gap for a 'feeder' lane in the first line, then the law is exactly the same for cyclists and motor vehicles. If the light is red you must stop at the first line. If it is green as you approach but changes to amber and red too late for you to safely stop at the first line, you must stop at the second line.

If there is a feeder lane, then cyclists may enter the ASL zone via the feeder lane when the lights are red, and must wait at the second line. But the feeder lane is almost invariably painted on the left (in UK) hence encouraging cyclists to filter up the left side of vehicles, which can be a dangerous practice.

If a cyclist is filtering up the right side, usually a safer option, strictly speaking they have to stop at the first line until the lights are green.

Doing as you say in your post, you are probably breaking the law, but then so are most cyclists - and motorists!
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Flinders
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Flinders »

Personally, as that's what you're asking, I wouldn't mind sharing the ASL with motorcyclists provided they are careful maneuvering around any cyclists. I've never once that I recall had a problem on the road with an inconsiderate motorcyclist when cycling, BTW.
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Slow Loris
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Slow Loris »

No sharks here, just people on wheels – in various forms :) .

philehidiot wrote:
1) What are the safety benefits for motorcyclists not being allowed in the ASL box? Usually we arrive from the right hand side and cyclists arrive from the left so we're not mixed up that much (I'm in Leeds rather than the more manic situation of London) and the motorbikes will be out of the way before any problems can occur (my view - I am expecting it to be challenged).

2) Would people object to motorbikes being allowed to use the ASL box and what are the reasons for this?


I'm in London and am ambivalent towards ASLs for the reasons others have given. If they are not already blocked by motor traffic, it is rarely possible or safe to access them on the left due to parked cars, stationery traffic and the presence of buses and HGVs further down the line. I normally arrive on the right and, while I mix more with motorbikes, regular shoulder checks help prevent any conflict. I generally find motorcyclists very courteous. However, while both parties are vulnerable road users, cyclists are at greater risk if in conflict with any motorised vehicle. Sharing an ASL with one motorbike is harmless, but several all in a hurry (everyone here seems to be in a hurry) may prove problematic. On occasions where a motorcyclist positions themselves on my right in an ASL and I'm about to turn right, I'll inform them and they very kindly hang back. More motorbikes in an ASL, however, means more room for error and safety for cyclists could be compromised. For that reason I feel ASLs should be restricted to bicycles, but while there's zero enforcement they're probably best regarded as 'Another Stationery Landrover' :( .
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snibgo
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by snibgo »

A couple of time, in Cambridge, I've wanted to go into an ASL but a motorcyclist has blocked it. This is particularly annoying when I want to turn right and my only chance of not being stuck in the middle of the junction is to get across sharpish as soon as the lights change. (At one of those junctions, a cyclist was killed, a year or two ago.)

I'm sure the motorcyclists weren't deliberately causing problems. Merely ignorant. And not bothered about the pesky law about crossing the first white line on red.
Psamathe
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Psamathe »

I can't see the safety benefit for motorcyclists. Great, it allows them to move to the front of a traffic queue and zoom away ahead of the cars. However (and not being a motorcyclist myself) I have always considered virtually all motorcyclists more than capable of keeping up with the other motorised traffic (and in practice doing far better) ... so other than help them queue jump and zoom away ahead of these slower cars/lorries, what would the safety benefit for them be ?

Ian
kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

Psamathe wrote:I can't see the safety benefit for motorcyclists. Great, it allows them to move to the front of a traffic queue and zoom away ahead of the cars. However (and not being a motorcyclist myself) I have always considered virtually all motorcyclists more than capable of keeping up with the other motorised traffic (and in practice doing far better) ... so other than help them queue jump and zoom away ahead of these slower cars/lorries, what would the safety benefit for them be ?

Ian

We need to start with the assumption that a motorcyclist is 'allowed' to filter through to the front of a queue (if you disagree the rest of this is nonsense).
If they can't pass the stop line then they must queue either between lanes of traffic or to the side of a vehicle. Suppose that vehicle can't see them? Or see's them but thinks they can get away faster? Suppose the bike is going straight on but the vehicle is wanting to turn across it's path? Suppose the bike stalls?
Of course you can try to filter into the stream of traffic but you'd be surprised how many drivers will try to prevent you.

The safest thing to do on a motorcycle (if you've filtered) is to put yourself in front of the vehicle at the front of the queue, something I was doing years before ASL's appeared.

It's also not true that "all" motorcycles can keep up with other traffic, if you have a small motorcycle particularly with an automatic clutch there is a lot of traffic that can easily beat you off the line and IME if you want to experience bullying - forget bicycles and try to ride a small scooter in traffic!
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ArMoRothair
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by ArMoRothair »

kwackers wrote:It's also not true that "all" motorcycles can keep up with other traffic, if you have a small motorcycle particularly with an automatic clutch there is a lot of traffic that can easily beat you off the line and IME if you want to experience bullying - forget bicycles and try to ride a small scooter in traffic!


Not just small motorbikes either.

As a lifelong cyclist I was keen to observe ASLs when I passed my motorbike licence. I can still remember my first morning motoring to work; I filtered up the outside of a queue at the Lambeth Palace roundabout lights, reached the ASL and was careful not to enter it because I was piloting a motor vehicle. When the lights were turning green the Transit beside moved earlier than I was expecting, he jumped the lights, and I was left precariously high-and-dry trying to slot back into the now moving stream. I learnt that lesson the hard way and would never put myself in such a silly position again. Now I will filter up the offside, and I will enter the ASL but I'm careful of any cyclists there, and try to leave room for others to join.
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by Vorpal »

kwackers wrote:We need to start with the assumption that a motorcyclist is 'allowed' to filter through to the front of a queue (if you disagree the rest of this is nonsense).
If they can't pass the stop line then they must queue either between lanes of traffic or to the side of a vehicle. Suppose that vehicle can't see them? Or see's them but thinks they can get away faster? Suppose the bike is going straight on but the vehicle is wanting to turn across it's path? Suppose the bike stalls?
Of course you can try to filter into the stream of traffic but you'd be surprised how many drivers will try to prevent you.

The safest thing to do on a motorcycle (if you've filtered) is to put yourself in front of the vehicle at the front of the queue, something I was doing years before ASL's appeared.

It's also not true that "all" motorcycles can keep up with other traffic, if you have a small motorcycle particularly with an automatic clutch there is a lot of traffic that can easily beat you off the line and IME if you want to experience bullying - forget bicycles and try to ride a small scooter in traffic!

Actually, I think that the safest thing for both cyclists and motorcyclists to do is to rejoin a travel lane a bit before the junction, and take primary position in that lane to travel through the junction. It's easiest to insert oneself into the flow of traffic when it is moving slowly (at the end or beginning of movement when a light changes). That probably means waiting in the queue for one light, instead of going right up to the front.

This approach ensures that the cyclist/motorcyclist doesn't get caught out with a light change whilst trying to get into an ASL. It also prevents breaking the law with regard to the stop lines :roll: when filtering on the safer outside of slow or stopped traffic.

I've generally used ASLs only when bullied into it; that is when one or more drivers obstruct me from rejoining the traffic lane after filtering.
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kwackers
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by kwackers »

Vorpal wrote:Actually, I think that the safest thing for both cyclists and motorcyclists to do is to rejoin a travel lane a bit before the junction, and take primary position in that lane to travel through the junction. It's easiest to insert oneself into the flow of traffic when it is moving slowly (at the end or beginning of movement when a light changes). That probably means waiting in the queue for one light, instead of going right up to the front.

In practise these days I find you simply overtake half a mile of traffic and you might get a chance to insert yourself into the stream a few tens of yards back and perhaps wait for an extra light change or more likely the only place with a gap just happens to be the front of the queue.

That's not to say I don't do that, depends on how things are playing out at the time but some drivers take huge exceptions to you dropping in front of them, less so with large motorcycles (they usually just quietly seeth) but I must admit on a bicycle on more than one occasion I've had a driver take enormous exception even to the point of partially overtaking, pulling alongside and forcing me back to the kerb whilst on the horn and gesticulating wildly!
Then of course you have to allow for the fact that initially you probably don't have enough braking distance in front of you and you've robbed the guy behind of his braking distance too.

So in that respect I'd disagree that as a general rule filtering into moving traffic is safer than stopping ahead of the stop line and taking primary.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: ASL and motorcyclists

Post by [XAP]Bob »

If the queue starts to move as you are filtering then you can normally slot into a gap that is opening before the car behind has actually started.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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