proviz victim blaming advert

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redfacedbaldfatman
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Joined: 25 Aug 2012, 2:15pm

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by redfacedbaldfatman »

beardy wrote:The ProViz jacket should get ASA on its case if it is only retro-reflective as it acts in the video as if it is an actual light source, I was thinking "wow what a jacket" until other peoples' posts made me realise it is only reflective and not what it appears to be in the advert.



It does appear to be good... there are a couple of other videos, like this one below
Video description is: "This is a safety announcement, wearing this jacket may seriously damage a drivers vision, I have been told it needs a dip switch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkSHWH-zkRc

This guy in USA is showing a similar jacket made by Nike for the Olympic team, it looks awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFWXzz4j4I8

Breathability worries me about the Proviz jacket, it has vents, but is made mostly of plasticy material which will not be breathable in any way. OK for a dog walk I suppose but I'd sweat buckets on the bike.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by thirdcrank »

beardy wrote: ... it acts in the video as if it is an actual light source, I was thinking "wow what a jacket" until other peoples' posts made me realise it is only reflective and not what it appears to be in the advert.


Yes. That sums it up for me. From the still shots, this looks like an effective reflecting jacket but anybody watching the vid might easily be deceived into believing it would light up in total darkness. This means that the vid might deceive the unwary into believing that they would be visible to a driver whose headlights were not shining directly on them: eg the situation when a driver is waiting to emerge from a side road and their headlights are shining across the road they are waiting to enter or cross, rather than at any cyclist approaching on that main road. The benefits of reflective clothing are controversial but there can be nobody who sincerely believes that it works in the absence of light to reflect. It may well be that the rider in the vid would benefit from a brighter front lamp, especially in in a line of cars with bright headlamps on, but a reflective jacket is no substitute.

Another thing that I don't think anybody has commented on is the importance of a very acute angle of reflection. While a relatively high up reflector, eg at the rider's torso level, will be clearly visible at some distance, the nearer the vehicle is to the rider, the less the reflective effect until it is lost completely. This is why reflective bands around the rider's ankles or reflectors on shoes or pedals are so effective: at close quarters the angle of reflection is still very acute. A jacket is less prone to getting mucky than the lower trouser legs, but that's where this material might be most effective.
beardy
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by beardy »

thirdcrank wrote:
beardy wrote: ... it acts in the video as if it is an actual light source, I was thinking "wow what a jacket" until other peoples' posts made me realise it is only reflective and not what it appears to be in the advert.


Yes. That sums it up for me. From the still shots, this looks like an effective reflecting jacket but anybody watching the vid might easily be deceived into believing it would light up in total darkness. This means that the vid might deceive the unwary into believing that they would be visible to a driver whose headlights were not shining directly on them: eg the situation when a driver is waiting to emerge from a side road and their headlights are shining across the road they are waiting to enter or cross, rather than at any cyclist approaching on that main road. The benefits of reflective clothing are controversial but there can be nobody who sincerely believes that it works in the absence of light to reflect. It may well be that the rider in the vid would benefit from a brighter front lamp, especially in in a line of cars with bright headlamps on, but a reflective jacket is no substitute.

Another thing that I don't think anybody has commented on is the importance of a very acute angle of reflection. While a relatively high up reflector, eg at the rider's torso level, will be clearly visible at some distance, the nearer the vehicle is to the rider, the less the reflective effect until it is lost completely. This is why reflective bands around the rider's ankles or reflectors on shoes or pedals are so effective: at close quarters the angle of reflection is still very acute. A jacket is less prone to getting mucky than the lower trouser legs, but that's where this material might be most effective.


I was fooled for a while. :oops:
thirdcrank
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by thirdcrank »

beardy wrote: ... I was fooled for a while. :oops:


I'm very sorry if it came across that I was criticising you, when my target was the advertiser.

I was trying to say that the way you were deceived might easily apply to others, who might assume that that jacket could be seen without a light shining on it. I was questioning the good faith of the advertiser, not yours. In fact, I'm saying that I doubt that this was not intended by the advertiser. They knew full well what they were doing.

The embarrassment is all mine. :oops:
beardy
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by beardy »

I wasnt embarrassed because you pointed it out, I was embarrassed for having been gullible enough to think this was some new fangled invention.

So apart from the advertising being misleading and the fact that retro reflectives have their limits, I quite fancy one for activities where you are not sweating, like on a motorcycle. Though I do have an old hi-viz jacket with about half that amount of reflective on already.
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GrumpyGit
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Location: North London

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by GrumpyGit »

redfacedbaldfatman wrote:How about this video from Wowow... "sorry I didn't see you". They claim in the video description that "You will be seen with the 3M Spoke Reflectors!"
I found it quite distasteful.


I've actually got those spoke reflectors on my hybrid just because I like the way the whole wheel disc lights up when it's spinning!

I prefer them to those little reflectors that clip between two spokes.
Derek - The enlightened petrolhead ;)
redfacedbaldfatman
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by redfacedbaldfatman »

GrumpyGit wrote:
redfacedbaldfatman wrote:How about this video from Wowow... "sorry I didn't see you". They claim in the video description that "You will be seen with the 3M Spoke Reflectors!"
I found it quite distasteful.


I've actually got those spoke reflectors on my hybrid just because I like the way the whole wheel disc lights up when it's spinning!

I prefer them to those little reflectors that clip between two spokes.


I have them too and I think they're brilliant! (but I didn't like the promotional video with the bent wheel and careless driver)
I've jutst bought another set because the ones on the rear are quite dirty and it's not coming off easily. Might swap them over and pop the dirty ones in the dishwasher. :wink:
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GrumpyGit
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Location: North London

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by GrumpyGit »

redfacedbaldfatman wrote:
GrumpyGit wrote:
redfacedbaldfatman wrote:How about this video from Wowow... "sorry I didn't see you". They claim in the video description that "You will be seen with the 3M Spoke Reflectors!"
I found it quite distasteful.


I've actually got those spoke reflectors on my hybrid just because I like the way the whole wheel disc lights up when it's spinning!

I prefer them to those little reflectors that clip between two spokes.


I have them too and I think they're brilliant! (but I didn't like the promotional video with the bent wheel and careless driver)
I've jutst bought another set because the ones on the rear are quite dirty and it's not coming off easily. Might swap them over and pop the dirty ones in the dishwasher. :wink:


Don't be too hard on the video, it appears to be a German attempt at humour. I'm well versed in that subject having 50% of my genes from that country :oops: But at least I am very punctual! :D
Derek - The enlightened petrolhead ;)
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by [XAP]Bob »

GrumpyGit wrote:
redfacedbaldfatman wrote:How about this video from Wowow... "sorry I didn't see you". They claim in the video description that "You will be seen with the 3M Spoke Reflectors!"
I found it quite distasteful.


I've actually got those spoke reflectors on my hybrid just because I like the way the whole wheel disc lights up when it's spinning!

I prefer them to those little reflectors that clip between two spokes.



I've got them because they were all I saw of a child cyclist some point last year. I had just pulled out of my drive and I was starting to turn off my road when I saw these reflectors as my lights swept across the road I was entering.
They were bright, clear, unmistakable. The kid had no lights, and no other reflectors that I saw at any point. The corner is often taken by PIC's (Prats In Cars) at full speed due to the radiused corner and generally low traffic flow (resulting in a couple of fairly spectacular collisions).
The pattern from the spoke reflectors was just *so* clear that I got a couple of sets the next time they showed up in ALDI. I have one set split between by front wheels on the trike (no point in doing the "inside" spokes, nor the rear wheel, which is covered with panniers etc)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Cunobelin
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by Cunobelin »

redfacedbaldfatman wrote:
GrumpyGit wrote:I've jutst bought another set because the ones on the rear are quite dirty and it's not coming off easily. Might swap them over and pop the dirty ones in the dishwasher. :wink:


I got mine in a Lidl Sale!
ferdinand
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by ferdinand »

I think that's quite a good thought provoking advent.

Certainly, pootling around my market town in the dark, there is no shortage of cyclists with no lights at all, or lights that are more like fireflies in a jamjar.

The comment about spoke reflectors makes the key point that it can be any item that alerts others to your presence. I find that pedal reflectors are good at standing out for cyclists is urban camo. This jacket is one more opportunity for cyclists to be more visible at eye level for most drivers.

My one serious critique of this jacket, apart from price, is that there could be more done to help during the day, when battleship grey hides a cyclist as effectively as it hid HMS Belfast.

I'm interested that road.CC in their piece equate 'right' with 'as required by law'.

Ferdinand
Bicycler
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by Bicycler »

I can't find the word 'right' in there. they certainly didn't seem to be taking a strong position one way or the other on hi-vis jackets. I think it is only right ( :wink: ) for cycling organisations and publications to look critically at anything which seeks to place greater responsibility upon cyclists than they already have under the law
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by thirdcrank »

The problem here is the Highway Code; it's only advice, but it can be relied on etc....

My gripe with the Proviz ad is that it is an inaccurate description of the jacket which is depicted as a light source, rather than a reflective garment.
Mick Brinks
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by Mick Brinks »

Cunobelin wrote:This is almost worth a complaint to the ASA

The advert is misleading, makes unsubstantiated claims and misrepresent the abilities of the product

I recently complained to Proviz about another of their adverts, which I think is misleading. They replied that they are happy with it.
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Cunobelin
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Re: proviz victim blaming advert

Post by Cunobelin »

ferdinand wrote:I think that's quite a good thought provoking advent.

Certainly, pootling around my market town in the dark, there is no shortage of cyclists with no lights at all, or lights that are more like fireflies in a jamjar.

The comment about spoke reflectors makes the key point that it can be any item that alerts others to your presence. I find that pedal reflectors are good at standing out for cyclists is urban camo. This jacket is one more opportunity for cyclists to be more visible at eye level for most drivers.

My one serious critique of this jacket, apart from price, is that there could be more done to help during the day, when battleship grey hides a cyclist as effectively as it hid HMS Belfast.

I'm interested that road.CC in their piece equate 'right' with 'as required by law'.

Ferdinand



Weirdly the areas with higher numbers of military personnel tend to link with higher cycling rates.

Bizarrely a lot of these cyclists are wearing camouflage gear

Yet the accident rate doesn't reflect this



There are two reasons.....

Either the MOD needs to rethink camouflage as it doesn't work

The visibility of the cyclist is not really a factor
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