Is it time for radicalism?

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TonyR
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Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by TonyR »

Mick F wrote:Some people are idiots, but not people generally.


Some people are idiots all of the time
All people are idiots some of the time
But all people are not idiots all of the time
reohn2
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by reohn2 »

orangebiker wrote:On a point of economics, can anyone explain how the GDP/car thing works?

Using cars and paying for petrol/repairs etc is just one way of spending money that people already have. If they didn't drive a car they would presumably spend it on something else (eg. a bigger house/better food/more bikes....).

Or do you think that if people didn't spend money on cars they would save it up and therefore not be spending it at all?


It's all to do with profit and how much profit is made,the motor and petrochemical industries are a very lucrative business which wields great power worldwide,their marketing systems promising anything from high status,to almost everlasting life.... ..take a look at some car ads they're laughable to any sane person not high on benzine.....
It hardly matters that the spin offs are ever greater pollution and CO2 emissions and more scrap vehicles than we know what to do with due to to built in obsolescence,etc,etc.
In short,yet again the public has been sold a pup with the help of governments in the pockets of manufacturers and suppliers of fuel for motors.
It's no coincidence that UK government talks of creating ever better cycling provision yet kicks into the long grass(don't you hate that term)such plans when as little as £10 per head of population would boost cycling no end,and encourage people to use bicycles as a means of transport,would at the same time boosting the nations health reducing obesity and type two diabetes.
TBH you couldn't dissuade people more from cycling if you tried,yet against all odds,cycling is on the increase,and still those who hold the purse strings won't build better cycling facilities.
Same goes for public transport,running PT as a profit making industry is a joke leading to bad unreliable services on all but the most profitable routes and even then buses belching out toxins by the bucket load into the faces of their own customer,you couldn't make it up
I'm rambling aren't I? :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Ben@Forest
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by Ben@Forest »

mrjemm wrote:By making cars utilitarian devices with minimal comfort and variation between versions, and taking control out of the hands of the occupant, car use will likely diminish radically, I suspect. They are of course very useful, but that should be their extent. There should be a limited or even no element of pleasure in the use of them, and this use should be not easy to abuse- i.e. all are capable of the same, restricted, performance...


As much as I have no real interest in cars the problem with this approach is that you could as easily apply it to bikes. Why should there be carbon fibre road bikes as well as fat-tyred MTBs? Why cyclo-cross as well as hybrids? You'd end up with us all riding three speed, steel-framed step-throughs because it would be cheaper and more energy-efficient (energy in terms of bike-building) than building a vast variety of bikes. Of course the performance of such could be better by young, fit men as opposed to elderly women so in that sense they could not be 'restricted' but essentially you're going down the one-party state model.

Trabant anyone? Or Flying Pigeon? The latter was (and probably still is) the most popular bicycle manufacturer in China. The basic model used to weigh 20 kilos.
freeflow
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by freeflow »

The best way to get people to change en-mass is to invent something other than a car which meets your needs for less drain on resources damage to the environment etc but which is more desirable from the selfish/ego boosting needs of the user. And bikes and buses don't work in this sense.
beardy
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by beardy »

orangebiker wrote:On a point of economics, can anyone explain how the GDP/car thing works?

Using cars and paying for petrol/repairs etc is just one way of spending money that people already have. If they didn't drive a car they would presumably spend it on something else (eg. a bigger house/better food/more bikes....).

Or do you think that if people didn't spend money on cars they would save it up and therefore not be spending it at all?


I am trying to figure out an answer to this. GDP is a crazy measure, not only does it raise with every disaster (and cars do bring about a fair degree of those!) but also it can raise just by passing money from one person to another, even repeatedly.
So GDP will be much higher if a car passes through many owners rather than has one owner for its life.
Cars are quite a large investment, so each transaction has a relatively large effect on GDP.
Compare to food and clothes which are smaller purchases and only transferred between owners a few times, the purchase of the new item normally being the final transaction.

Though I am sure that services and virtual products could be even more use at raising GDP as they dont need any real life material to be bound up in them. The best example being something like turning an un-made bed into £1,000,000 by calling it Art. However most of the population are not quite that gullible.
Mark1978
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by Mark1978 »

Perhaps we should be building new roads? Perhaps we should in fact be embarking upon the biggest road building programme since the motorways?

How will that 'solve' the issue? By making them cycleways (the cycle equivalent of the motorway).

In the North East at least we've got masses of ex-railway alignments which can be used. But even those which can be cycled are usually a poor rocky surface unsuitable for anything other than a MTB, especially this time of year. Tarmac the lot of them, to a good standard, not forgetting actually maintaining them too.

The 'road' below is about as wide as a single track road but is easily wide enough for two way cycling with room to spare.
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Mistik-ka
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by Mistik-ka »

Mark1978 wrote:The 'road' below is about as wide as a single track road but is easily wide enough for two way cycling with room to spare.

Blimey, that looks like heaven! :D
reohn2
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by reohn2 »

http://road.cc/content/news/136838-if-t ... ore-people :?

These are the people in charge,who wring their hands saying how CO2 levels must come down,yet increase road building and prioritise car use
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
PH
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by PH »

The radical question is not how to change some peoples mode of transport, but why are we travelling so much anyway?
The UK follows the longest working day in Europe with he longest commute. Not that Europe is a shining example, but it would at least be a start. Despite a generation of amazing technological advance, I'm still expected to work the same hours as my father, why? Why are people travelling so far to work? Why do people need to consume so much? If we're not producing great wealth why are we putting so much effort in? If we are, where is it going :|
Don't get me wrong, getting more people to cycle rather than drive would be a good thing, but it's not nearly enough to stop us running into that wall.
andy65
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by andy65 »

Cars are not the problem. They are a necessary part of modern life. I live in a small town in a largely rural area of the country with very poor public transport. I can and do commute by bike the 10 miles to my place of work in a neighbouring town as often as I can, but I am a hardy rider who quite enjoys riding in the dark and the foul weather that we have most of the winter and some of the summer. However, my work colleagues think I am insane. They may treat me as an equal on the road, but they will never see cycling as a 'normal' mode of transport if by that we mean a substitute for a car and I am not sure that I would want them to either. To be quite honest it is rather nice to be thought of as a bit of a head case.
andrewk
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by andrewk »

[quote="reohn2"]
The key to this is curbing motor traffic speed and parking(for all but the infirm)
[quote]

This is beyond ludditeism!

Much as I am pro cycling I firmly oppose the anti car brigade, as does the majority of the population.
To successfully promote cycling one has to win over the public, NOT antagonise them....a left wing bearded weirdos' vision of a cycling nirvana predicated on banning or severely restricting car use is sure to garner almost universal opposition and thus backfire.
Get real! Cycling has to grow and prosper alongside private motor transport, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Given the general belief that costly infrastructure is required for cycling to grow and prosper the importance of carrying public opinion and thus politicians with one is paramount.
snibgo
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by snibgo »

andrewk wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The key to this is curbing motor traffic speed and parking(for all but the infirm)

This is beyond ludditeism!


Sadly, I agree with both of you.

I think UK society is dysfunctional. We have become addicted to cars, and have adapted our society to the needs of cars, to the detriment of humans. This has been gradual but persistent over many decades.

Can we kick the addiction? Not easily, and not willingly. Without a massive incentive, we will become more dysfunctional.

My conclusion: we will grow more obese, more unfit, and die early through pollution and lack of exercise.
mrjemm
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by mrjemm »

Go back, read PH's last post, and then look at the subsequent posts that ignore his and rant about the need for cars.

PH has hit one important nail firmly on the head. We go on about a need for cars, but why do we? They have become the norm. Because they are so cheap and convenient we have organised our lives around the use of them. We accept their use as a pre-requisite and base our living plans on them- we take our homes on the assumption that we can, and will drive to work, or shopping, or the kids to school, or just to drive. I admit to living like this (Mme drives to work, and I am dreaming of a change of job that would require this at least temporarily), but can see the fallacy of such a culture.

Yes, I am bearded and rather left oriented (if you hadn't guessed... :wink: ).
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Mick F
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by Mick F »

Mistik-ka wrote:
Mark1978 wrote:The 'road' below is about as wide as a single track road but is easily wide enough for two way cycling with room to spare.

Blimey, that looks like heaven! :D
No it doesn't.
There are no hills. Cycling on the flat is boring.
Mick F. Cornwall
reohn2
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Re: Is it time for radicalism?

Post by reohn2 »

andrewk wrote:This is beyond ludditeism!

Much as I am pro cycling I firmly oppose the anti car brigade, as does the majority of the population.
To successfully promote cycling one has to win over the public, NOT antagonise them....a left wing bearded weirdos' vision of a cycling nirvana predicated on banning or severely restricting car use is sure to garner almost universal opposition and thus backfire.

You quote me completely out of context,nor do I have a beard,don't regard myself as weird and do own a car :) .
I'm in no way wanting to ban the car but to make the alternatives more convenient and the bike isn't, and never will be the answer to the greater part,but public transport could be if done right.

Get real! Cycling has to grow and prosper alongside private motor transport, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm being very 'real',nor did I say the two are mutually exclusive.
The provision for cycling in the UK is abysmal for the most part,the attitude to cycling is the one you're levelling at me as "left wing bearded weirdos'" though despite that cycling is growing,so there must be a lot of "left wing bearded weirdos'" about :wink:
Think what could happen if cycling were given priority instead of government platitudes and being stamped on as the sickly minister's attitude I linked to above.

Given the general belief that costly infrastructure is required for cycling to grow and prosper the importance of carrying public opinion and thus politicians with one is paramount.

And many,many times more costly infrastructure for ever more car use,so that in an ever shorter time scale,we'll need even more more roads as we overgrow the ones's we are now building,is that a satisfactory answer?
What is public opinion anyway,do you know?
The public has been left with no choice but to use the car as a means of transport with many people commuting 20miles each way or more a day,without any real alternative and once it's on the drive it's even more convenient,as everything is geared up for it's use as we slowly choke on it's fumes in the endless lines of waiting traffic.
The truth is society has been geared up for the car and was led along that path,for profit and a dream that's slowly becoming a nightmare.
Do you really think public transport was deregulated for the good of the people?

Edited for typo's
Last edited by reohn2 on 27 Nov 2014, 10:45am, edited 2 times in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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