Using cycle paths

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snibgo
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by snibgo »

ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

Agreed.

ukdodger wrote:They dont prevent you cycling on the path they only inconvenience you getting round them.

I have certainly encountered barriers that prevent me from cycling. Some not only prevent me from cycling, but require me to unload my bike to get it through.
Bicycler
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Bicycler »

We probably all have the same interests at heart. It is wrong to suggest a bias where people differ in opinion. I may be on a cycling forum but I spent a long time as a an active member of a walkers' group and the Open Spaces Society. It did make me aware of the difficulties faced by many people trying to access paths and what is fit for a 20 or 30 year old is not necessarily fit for somebody older, with restrictive movement, or with a dog. It was clear that was wrong. It wasn't by design but sheer inconsideration that these people were excluded. In recent years organisations have been trying to put this right.

The same applies to cycling. How this country hopes to promote utility cycling by making even cycle facilities inaccessible by utility cyclists I have no idea.

Our ancestors in the 17th century had no problem labelling the erection of gates or barriers across highways a "public nuisance". I can think of no more adequate description in the 21st.
Last edited by Bicycler on 25 Nov 2014, 12:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

snibgo wrote:
ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

Agreed.

ukdodger wrote:They dont prevent you cycling on the path they only inconvenience you getting round them.

I have certainly encountered barriers that prevent me from cycling. Some not only prevent me from cycling, but require me to unload my bike to get it through.


Me too. Several times on each C2C I've done. But they dont stop you cycling on the path only through the barrier. I honestly dont find it an issue. What would be an issue is track bikes coming past at speed.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

Bicycler wrote:We probably all have the same interests at heart. It is wrong to suggest a bias where people differ in opinion. I may be on a cycling forum but I spent a long time as a an active member of a walkers' group and the Open Spaces Society. It did make me aware of the difficulties faced by many people trying to access paths and what is fit for a 20 or 30 year old is not necessarily fit for somebody older, with restrictive movement, or with a dog. The same applies to cycling. How this country hopes to promote utility cycling by making even cycle facilities inaccessible by utility cyclists I have no idea.

Our ancestors in the 17th century had no problem labelling the erection of gates or barriers across highways a "public nuisance". I can think of no more adequate description in the 21st.


But those gates were erected to keep people out for their own financial reasons. Not quite the same thing. I cant help wondering why there isnt a similar hue and cry from walkers about turn stiles or other barriers across their paths not accompanied by a gate. Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?
snibgo
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by snibgo »

ukdodger wrote:I honestly dont find it an issue.

Lucky you. Getting on or off my bike is a pain. Literally. My dodgy hips give me pain when I get on or off.

To me, cycling is sitting on a bike, pedalling with my feet and so on. It isn't walking while wheeling a bike. It certainly isn't lifting the bike over or around obstructions, nor unloading the bike then getting it through the barrier then going back for the luggage and getting it through and re-loading the bike. Any barrier that makes me do this is an anti-cycling barrier.

ukdodger wrote:Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?

I hope that wheelchair users (and the general population) complain about any wheelchair barriers.
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mjr
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by mjr »

ukdodger wrote:I dont know the criteria they use to ascertain whether or not to install these things but I doubt anyone else here does either.

A few years ago, I looked very deeply for reasons why ineffective chicane barriers were being installed on many cycleways in Worle by the rather anti-cycling North Somerset Council. The council claimed it was to address a problem with mini-moto abuse of the paths, which doesn't make sense because it's easy for a mini-moto to do a chicane - actually a fun handling challenge, as seen on many racetracks including Monaco and Spa - and the chicanes were placed at the ends of long straights, not where they would actually hinder any mini-motos racing.

What were the criteria? I asked by email and was told that each cycle track was assessed on its evidence. Then I asked for the evidence and got nowhere so I ended up making public Freedom of Information requests for it which resulted in North Somerset Council admitting "We do not possess information in relation to how many mini-motos" while Somerset Police did not have numbers in a form that would support installation of the chicanes so I conclude that the police had not supplied evidence to the council (else both would already posess it in a suitable form) and I suspect the barriers were actually installed without meeting any criteria except possibly officer and/or councillor bigotry.

At that point, I gave up on that case and just switched to riding on nearby roads instead of the afflicted cycle tracks instead. I think changing it would need more of a campaign than I could muster back then.
ukdodger wrote:I cant help wondering why there isnt a similar hue and cry from walkers about turn stiles or other barriers across their paths not accompanied by a gate. Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?

Wheelchair and mobility scooter users often join riders in campaigning against these evil barriers, for example: http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news ... ng_my_way/
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Bicycler
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Bicycler »

The reason for the barriers varied. Something was a nuisance because it obstructed public use of the highway regardless of intent.

IIRC the Ramblers policy is to seek the removal of all stiles and supports the current best practice that new and replacement structures conform to the relevant British Standard which enable disabled access

Unfortunately (and does this sound familiar) the standard is only advisory, the hierarchy of provision which places gaps over accessible gates, over kissing gates, over stiles (to be used only in "exceptional circumstances") can be ignored. Luckily disability legislation should mean this issue is taken a bit more seriously by authorities in future and this might also benefit us on bikes.
Last edited by Bicycler on 25 Nov 2014, 1:42pm, edited 2 times in total.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

snibgo wrote:
ukdodger wrote:I honestly dont find it an issue.

Lucky you. Getting on or off my bike is a pain. Literally. My dodgy hips give me pain when I get on or off.

To me, cycling is sitting on a bike, pedalling with my feet and so on. It isn't walking while wheeling a bike. It certainly isn't lifting the bike over or around obstructions, nor unloading the bike then getting it through the barrier then going back for the luggage and getting it through and re-loading the bike. Any barrier that makes me do this is an anti-cycling barrier.

ukdodger wrote:Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?

I hope that wheelchair users (and the general population) complain about any wheelchair barriers.


That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler? And do you have to go through all that every time with these barriers? I seem to recall getting though most of them with removing the panniers and I carry both. At times I stayed put on my bike too. It was just a matter of lifting the bars over.
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mjr
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by mjr »

ukdodger wrote:That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler?

How often are people knocked off by yobbos on scramblers on unbarriered cycleways? How often are they even scared by them? I'll bet it's far less than the numbers who are blocked or even crash into barriers.

Barriers aren't unfortunate - they're evil and cycleways could cater for almost everyone.
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grani
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by grani »

ukdodger wrote:
snibgo wrote:
ukdodger wrote:I honestly dont find it an issue.

Lucky you. Getting on or off my bike is a pain. Literally. My dodgy hips give me pain when I get on or off.

To me, cycling is sitting on a bike, pedalling with my feet and so on. It isn't walking while wheeling a bike. It certainly isn't lifting the bike over or around obstructions, nor unloading the bike then getting it through the barrier then going back for the luggage and getting it through and re-loading the bike. Any barrier that makes me do this is an anti-cycling barrier.

ukdodger wrote:Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?

I hope that wheelchair users (and the general population) complain about any wheelchair barriers.


That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler? And do you have to go through all that every time with these barriers? I seem to recall getting though most of them with removing the panniers and I carry both. At times I stayed put on my bike too. It was just a matter of lifting the bars over.


You know that just because you say that "everyone cant be catered for" it doesn't support your argument. The vast majority of users CAN be catered for by removing the barriers and let all legitimate users get access.

As far as I am aware there is no evidence to show that the barriers prevent any of the things you are so afraid of. You can correct me by providing a reference to it if I am wrong.

You talk about "just" doing things but show no understanding of the fact that not everyone is like you.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

mjr wrote:
ukdodger wrote:That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler?

How often are people knocked off by yobbos on scramblers on unbarriered cycleways? How often are they even scared by them? I'll bet it's far less than the numbers who are blocked or even crash into barriers.

Barriers aren't unfortunate - they're evil and cycleways could cater for almost everyone.


But how do we know? If petrol vehicles werent a problem why are their barriers to them. I've been scared rigid only once and wouldnt want to be so again.

Anyway we're not going to reach agreement so we'll just have to agree to differ. Good luck with the hips. I only have a neck problem that gets in the way of my cycling and that's bad enough.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by [XAP]Bob »

ukdodger wrote:That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler? And do you have to go through all that every time with these barriers? I seem to recall getting though most of them with removing the panniers and I carry both. At times I stayed put on my bike too. It was just a matter of lifting the bars over.


Most of the paths around here have "bypasses" for people on scramblers, and if you look at a scrambler and compare it with a bike then anything one can get past, so can the other.

It's not a valid response to the issue - CCTV and prosecution of offenders would be appropriate.

It's not an issue of access but of antisocial behaviour. I vote that we put anti car barriers at the top of each motorway exit slip - soon all the cars will be in a safe place, and the rest of us can get on with living.
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reohn2
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by reohn2 »

ukdodger wrote:
Bicycler wrote:We probably all have the same interests at heart. It is wrong to suggest a bias where people differ in opinion. I may be on a cycling forum but I spent a long time as a an active member of a walkers' group and the Open Spaces Society. It did make me aware of the difficulties faced by many people trying to access paths and what is fit for a 20 or 30 year old is not necessarily fit for somebody older, with restrictive movement, or with a dog. The same applies to cycling. How this country hopes to promote utility cycling by making even cycle facilities inaccessible by utility cyclists I have no idea.

Our ancestors in the 17th century had no problem labelling the erection of gates or barriers across highways a "public nuisance". I can think of no more adequate description in the 21st.


But those gates were erected to keep people out for their own financial reasons. Not quite the same thing. I cant help wondering why there isnt a similar hue and cry from walkers about turn stiles or other barriers across their paths not accompanied by a gate. Ok for the able bodied but what about wheelchair users?


IMO there's a difference between hillwalking and walking to the shops,the paths required are completely different.
Wheelchair users who wish to experience the countryside won't be able to get to the top of some of the peaks in say the Lakes,or other such highlands.
I think that's accepted to a large degree by them,and that some places aren't safe for wheelchair use.

Cycling utility routes and national cycling routes should be accessible by all cyclists whatever type of machine they ride,whether that be one,two,three or more wheels.
Most if not all these routes are shared use and therefore should be accessible to everyone from the able bodied to the most disabled who need use of wheeled transport,whether that be elec assist,helper assisted or not.Obviously there needs to be a power limit for those with power assist,there's very good legislation covering cycles and other assisted vehicles that can be used (and already is for all I know) for such paths.

That said there's no need for any kind of barrier other than to prevent motor cars taking wrong turnings but even then a signpost big enough explaining the limitations of use of such paths is all that should be needed in a civilised society.
Anyone breaking such laws should be dealt with by suitable penalty.
I suspect we'd all be agreed on that but I make no assumptions.
Why if that system works in other countries as mentioned by other and BTW, is my own experience,doesn't it work in this country?
Or is it that it does but for some reason the people in charge don't think it would and so erect barriers to prevent motorised vehicles from those paths?
Or is that in the UK we don't think it worthwhile policing such issues,and so erect barriers to stop any chance of perceived lawbreaking?
Either way it's a wrong attitude by those authorities and IMHO is a true human rights issue.
TBH such cries that these barriers are needed is a fallacy and misguided as society is inclusive and should remain so.
IMHO there are laws but only some are being upheld.
It seems to me that the quote ''civilised society should be judged on how it treats it's minorities'' was never more true than in this case and that it,and the law is conveniently forgotten by some in authority.
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reohn2
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by reohn2 »

ukdodger wrote:
That's unfortunate but everyone cant be catered for. Would you welcome being scared stiff or even knocked off by a yobbo on a scrambler? And do you have to go through all that every time with these barriers? I seem to recall getting though most of them with removing the panniers and I carry both. At times I stayed put on my bike too. It was just a matter of lifting the bars over.


You really don't get do you?
The point is that motorcycles riding where they shouldn't,should be stopped by policing,(as others have said it's anti social behaviour),not by stopping a greater number of legitimate of users,using so those same paths!!!!!!!
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Bicycler
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Bicycler »

reohn2 wrote:IMO there's a difference between hillwalking and walking to the shops,the paths required are completely different.
Wheelchair users who wish to experience the countryside won't be able to get to the top of some of the peaks in say the Lakes,or other such highlands.
I think that's accepted to a large degree by them,and that some places aren't safe for wheelchair use.

Of course that's true. Though you would be surprised at the capabilities of modern off road mobility scooters and it is not just those with wheelchairs who struggle with things like stiles.

The principle regarding barriers is the same whether it is an urban ginnel, a moorland bridleway, a cycle path or a road. For any of us a route may be too long, too steep, too poorly surfaced or beyond our abilities and these are things we all have to take into account. However, a man-made barrier should not be the limiting factor which determines whether legitimate users may or not use the route.
Last edited by Bicycler on 25 Nov 2014, 3:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
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