Using cycle paths

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Vorpal
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Vorpal »

ukdodger wrote:So how many motorcycles have you ever come across?

Are you really speaking up for those who these barriers supposedly keep out or is that your own (and others here) annoyance of them leads you to believe that all users must obviously feel the same way. What about other path users who also dont want M/C's causing them an inconvenience. I seriously doubt walkers have any problem at all with them and they may indeed welcome them because they think they keep us out too. You'd have to be one brick short of a pile to take a mobility scooter on the C2C and much of it is impossible to get a trike over even without barriers.

Frankly if you think that allocating space for motorcyclists to play nicely somewhere else will stop illegal entry onto these paths you've more faith in human nature than I have. Skateboard parks did nothing to stop skateboarders doing it where they please and youth clubs never did stop kids collecting on street corners. Part of the fun is doing because you arent supposed too. The idea that the police are going to arrive and trash some riders M/C is fanciful. It would cost far too much to police these paths that way and yes maybe it is a sticking plaster rather than a solution but I say again everybody cant be catered for and it's better than nothing.

The only place I have encountered motorcycles on cycle paths is in places where there are barriers. I have never encountered motorcycles on the paths where there aren't barriers. It is scary and dangerous to encounter them. But the barriers obviously don't help. Or maybe only Essex motorcyclists think they are a challenge to target :roll:

TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.

And I'm not suggesting that having a safe and legal place for young motorcyclists to ride will stop all illegal motorcycling. But it will stop casual offenders, and leave it to those who are deliberately setting out to do something illegal and anti-social, rather than just wanting a place to ride.

People used to say that it wasn't possible for the police to enforce laws against drink driving. That it was 'fanciful' to expect the police to do anything about it unless someone had a crash. If that can change, so can this.

I realize that police currently do not set illegal motorcycling as a high priority in most areas. But they deal with it quickly enough when illegal motorcycling occurs in a national park, or on someone's estate, or when people have been killed or injured. Google for 'illegal motorcycling bikes seized' or 'police seize mini motos'. Some councils have videoed having the bikes crushed, then published them on YouTube to discourage offenders.

And I'm sure that some users do welcome barriers. But, I spoke to people in Essex about these things, and only a tiny minority of people actually wanted them. What I found was that when I asked people about them, I was regaled with stories about pensioners being rescued from them. Not just a few people, either. Anything from wheeled shopping bags to mobility scooters stuck in them.

I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.

Why aren't barriers like this required in other countries? I have never seen them in the USA, Norway, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Canada, Mexico, Denmark, or any other place I've cycled. Only in the UK.
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grani
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by grani »

Vorpal wrote:TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.


I agree completely. They clearly don't as I have come across plenty on the inside of these barriers.

Vorpal wrote:I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.



Absolutely! From a personal experience it is not practical for us as a family to go on the paths because of the barriers. I have helped people through the barriers myself, usually pensioners or just people that made the horrible mistake of actually carrying shopping on their bike. The barriers really make my blood boil and it boggles the mind how any of this even came into existence. I even feel the anger rising just writing this.

As for anyone welcoming those barriers. In my view you would have to be an "I´m alright Jack" type of person with a healthy dose of cynicism and distrust for your fellow man to take that view.

Just to touch on your last point. I have never come across anything similar in any other country. I would add Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, France, Iceland to your list.
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Tigerbiten
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Tigerbiten »

I've never seen them randomly scattered on cycle paths like they are in the UK.
But I've come across them the very odd time on the continent in ...........
Germany:- Bottom of a steep slope where the cycle track crossed a road.
Austria:- Where the cycle track crossed a main road. the cycle path had to gain about 5 foot to get to the road and the only way was a zig-zag so probably couldn't be helped.
Poland:- Crossing train tracks.
Lithuania:- Crossing train tracks.
So in most places they where for safety.
You have loads of gates along the North Sea cycle route but they are to keep sheep in.

Also a lot of places on the continent allow mopeds/scooters to uses cycle tracks and I never had a problem when I came across one on one.
grani
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by grani »

Tigerbiten wrote:I've never seen them randomly scattered on cycle paths like they are in the UK.
But I've come across them the very odd time on the continent in ...........
Germany:- Bottom of a steep slope where the cycle track crossed a road.
Austria:- Where the cycle track crossed a main road. the cycle path had to gain about 5 foot to get to the road and the only way was a zig-zag so probably couldn't be helped.
Poland:- Crossing train tracks.
Lithuania:- Crossing train tracks.
So in most places they where for safety.
You have loads of gates along the North Sea cycle route but they are to keep sheep in.

Also a lot of places on the continent allow mopeds/scooters to uses cycle tracks and I never had a problem when I came across one on one.


As you rightly point out, and as I should probably have been clear on, is that there are certainly barriers in other countries that are designed to slow people down. In my experience these are mainly of a zig zag variety and are generally quite passable with almost anything. In Britain however there are a huge number that downright prevent legitimate users from accessing the paths.

That is what I so passionately object to.
tatanab
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by tatanab »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@47.90713 ... 6Q52Ew!2e0
A voie verte in the Vosges. Barely need to slow down to negotiate the barriers. I saw a few family cyclists, a few families strolling (they did not fan out and block the path and were happy to make way for me) and no motorcycles of any sort. The path is wide enough to drive a car so the barriers prevent that; and the surface was as good or better than the road. I rode this for about 20 miles before turning off.
SleepyJoe
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by SleepyJoe »

I regularly commute along the Tarka Trail between Braunton & Barnstaple in North Devon, a converted rail track.
It has 'reasonable' access gates which I can slowly cycle through at either end, but you would still struggle with a fully loaded bike, trailer or mobility scooter. At the Barnstaple end, there is a gate which was left open for a long time (a couple of years) but was recently closed & padlocked, causing cyclist to slow down and meander through and causing all users to 'give way'. Whilst it was open, it was much easier and caused no problems. I assume it was closed to prevent vehicle access. There is now a well worn path around the side of the gate on the grass!

In all those years, I have only come across one motorbike, and that was a copper looking for someone!

The use of barriers seems to be a typical (British) response to anti-social behaviour. Rather than actually tackling the problem, the official response is to make it more difficult for everyone by putting barriers up or passing yet more laws.

Personally, I can understand the use of a single bollard in the middle of a wide path (or any type) to stop vehicles, and the use a barrier to stop pedestrians/cyclist rushing straight onto a road, but there should be no need to create anything more complicated!

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ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

snibgo wrote:
mjr wrote:What would happen if roads were designed so typical driving commuters will each suffer 5 car crashes a year?

Yes.

It seems obvious that roads are designed, built and maintained to not cause crashes, that motorists don't need to get out and push, or lift their vehicles over obstructions.

We seem incapable of applying the same obvious principles to cycle paths.


They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.
grani
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by grani »

ukdodger wrote:
snibgo wrote:
mjr wrote:What would happen if roads were designed so typical driving commuters will each suffer 5 car crashes a year?

Yes.

It seems obvious that roads are designed, built and maintained to not cause crashes, that motorists don't need to get out and push, or lift their vehicles over obstructions.

We seem incapable of applying the same obvious principles to cycle paths.


They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.


Come on - that is not the issue.

The barriers in use in Britain either completely exclude legitimate users or at least put them at risk. There is absolutely no comparison to a speed bump on a road.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

Vorpal wrote:
ukdodger wrote:So how many motorcycles have you ever come across?

Are you really speaking up for those who these barriers supposedly keep out or is that your own (and others here) annoyance of them leads you to believe that all users must obviously feel the same way. What about other path users who also dont want M/C's causing them an inconvenience. I seriously doubt walkers have any problem at all with them and they may indeed welcome them because they think they keep us out too. You'd have to be one brick short of a pile to take a mobility scooter on the C2C and much of it is impossible to get a trike over even without barriers.

Frankly if you think that allocating space for motorcyclists to play nicely somewhere else will stop illegal entry onto these paths you've more faith in human nature than I have. Skateboard parks did nothing to stop skateboarders doing it where they please and youth clubs never did stop kids collecting on street corners. Part of the fun is doing because you arent supposed too. The idea that the police are going to arrive and trash some riders M/C is fanciful. It would cost far too much to police these paths that way and yes maybe it is a sticking plaster rather than a solution but I say again everybody cant be catered for and it's better than nothing.

The only place I have encountered motorcycles on cycle paths is in places where there are barriers. I have never encountered motorcycles on the paths where there aren't barriers. It is scary and dangerous to encounter them. But the barriers obviously don't help. Or maybe only Essex motorcyclists think they are a challenge to target :roll:

TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.

And I'm not suggesting that having a safe and legal place for young motorcyclsits to ride will stop all illegal motorcycling. But it will stop casual offenders, and leave it to those who are deliberately setting out to do something illegal and anti-social, rather than just wanting a place to ride.

People used to say that it wasn't possible for the police to enforce laws against drink driving. That it was 'fanciful' to expect the police to do anything about it unless someone had a crash. If that can change, so can this.

I realize that police currently do not set illegal motorcycling as a high priority in most areas. But they deal with it quickly enough when illegal motorcycling occurs in a national park, or on someone's estate, or when people have been killed or injured. Google for 'illegal motorcycling bikes seized' or 'police seize mini motos'. Some councils have videoed having the bikes crushed, then published them on YouTube to discourage offenders.

And I'm sure that some users do welcome barriers. But, I spoke to people in Essex about these things, and only a tiny minority of people actually wanted them. What I found was that when I asked people about them, I was regaled with stories about pensioners being rescued from them. Not just a few people, either. Anything from wheeled shopping bags to mobility scooters stuck in them.

I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.

Why aren't barriers like this required in other countries? I have never seen them in the USA, Norway, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Canada, Mexico, Denmark, or any other place I've cycled. Only in the UK.


It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us. And that's my point. It isnt all about us. That's what gets us a bad name.

These barriers are not everywhere. I've only ever seen them on the C2C routes. I cant recall seeing them anywhere else but that doesnt mean there arent any. But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.

If legislation and policemen in cars made any difference to speeders in vehicles why are there speed bumps and traffic calming measures in use? Is it because they are most cost effective? There cant be many motorists that dont feel the same about these measures too yet I would guess that most motorists see them as a necessary evil for the benefit of all road users.

What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by snibgo »

ukdodger wrote:They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.

The equivalent on a cycle path would be as Tigerbiten and grani describe: barriers designed merely to slow cyclists, preventing them from hurtling over railway tracks or whatever. That's fair enough.

But a barrier that prevents me getting through with panniers of shopping, or parents with children, or recumbent trikes, or ... No. These are anti-cycling barriers. I suppose the idiot designers would deny this was their intention. But the result is anti-cycling.

ukdodger wrote:What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.

Barriers that prevent cycling on a cycle path are simply wrong. (Just as barriers that prevent wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths are also wrong.)
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

snibgo wrote:
ukdodger wrote:They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.

The equivalent on a cycle path would be as Tigerbiten and grani describe: barriers designed merely to slow cyclists, preventing them from hurtling over railway tracks or whatever. That's fair enough.

But a barrier that prevents me getting through with panniers of shopping, or parents with children, or recumbent trikes, or ... No. These are anti-cycling barriers. I suppose the idiot designers would deny this was their intention. But the result is anti-cycling.

ukdodger wrote:What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.

Barriers that prevent cycling on a cycle path are simply wrong. (Just as barriers that prevent wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths are also wrong.)


I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

They dont prevent you cycling on the path they only inconvenience you getting round them.
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mjr
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by mjr »

ukdodger wrote:It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how any of the barriers above prevent access by scramblers or quad bikes. Small quad bikes can sail through bike-handlebar-height barriers because their handlebars are so much lower. Scramblers can also fit through, plus they can jump the low barriers.

But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.

The main reason they're not on all cycle paths is campaigning by CTC, Cyclenation and others that sometimes makes the fools who propose this junk to do their homework and discover that the barriers are worse than nothing.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.

What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of empathy or logic among certain crash-barrier fanatics. They must really hate cyclists.
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Bicycler
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by Bicycler »

ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

So don't put barriers in then they are clearly unfit for use on a cycle path.

This trend for putting in barriers on cycle paths is inconsistent with the way we treat all other rights of way. Urban alleyways may be gated only if subject to a legal order which requires consultation and clear evidence of an existing anti-social behaviour problem on that path which cannot be solved in any other way. On a public footpath, new gates or stiles require permission which is only usually given if fencing is required for livestock. Gates are normally mandated instead of stiles in order to minimise access problems for path users. Best practice favours replacement of old gates and stiles with ones which allow use by a much wider proportion of path users such as the elderly and the disabled.. On a Public Bridleway obstructions pretty much the same applies to adding gates. Anything which prevents horses from using the route is simply not allowed. On Restricted Byways, Byways Open to All Traffic and normal public roads new barriers are never added.
Last edited by Bicycler on 25 Nov 2014, 12:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

mjr wrote:
ukdodger wrote:It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how any of the barriers above prevent access by scramblers or quad bikes. Small quad bikes can sail through bike-handlebar-height barriers because their handlebars are so much lower. Scramblers can also fit through, plus they can jump the low barriers.

But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.

The main reason they're not on all cycle paths is campaigning by CTC, Cyclenation and others that sometimes makes the fools who propose this junk to do their homework and discover that the barriers are worse than nothing.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.

What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of empathy or logic among certain crash-barrier fanatics. They must really hate cyclists.


Oh yes I really hate cyclists.
ukdodger
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Re: Using cycle paths

Post by ukdodger »

Bicycler wrote:
ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

So don't put barriers in then they are clearly unfit for use on a cycle path.

This trend for putting in barriers on cycle paths is inconsistent with the way we treat all other rights of way. Urban alleyways may be gated only if subject to a legal order which requires consultation and clear evidence of an existing anti-social behaviour problem on that path which cannot be solved in any other way. On a public footpath, new gates or stiles require permission which is only usually given if fencing is required for livestock. On a Public Bridleway obstructions pretty much the same applies to adding gates. Anything which prevents horses from using the route is simply not allowed. On Restricted Byways, Byways Open to All Traffic and normal public roads new barriers are never added.


So lets take them down and let every single user of these paths be subject to yobbos tearing past them at speed on scamblers then. I dont know the criteria they use to ascertain whether or not to install these things but I doubt anyone else here does either.
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