Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
drossall
Posts: 6115
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by drossall »

MikeF wrote:As there isn't a requirement for cycles to be fitted with speedometers, how can a cyclist knowingly exceed a speed limit?

Ignorance is rarely an excuse for breaking the law. The duty would be on the cyclist to ride sufficiently cautiously to be sure of remaining within the limit. It's a limit, not a target.
Flinders
Posts: 3023
Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 6:47pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Flinders »

I read that the limit in this instance was 5mph, a speed at which the slightest bump would tip me over sideways onto anything alongside, which could easily include a pensioner, a child, or a dog.
I walk at 4mph on the flat, surely anyone jogging would be going faster than 5mph. And if this is where the horses go, a horse walks at 4mph or more, and trots at 6-8mph, though trotting racers go at anything up to 30mph.
Are horses allowed to trot in the park?
User avatar
honesty
Posts: 2658
Joined: 16 Mar 2012, 3:33pm
Location: Somerset
Contact:

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by honesty »

Theres a good discussion on this on road.cc (here and the initial discussion here) but the crux of the issue is royal parks police think they have the ability to apply the road limits to bikes, but rather a few lawyers think they are talking out their bum. Its all to do with the wordings of some amendments which remove mechanically powered from the description of vehicles for the speed limits (seeming to therefore include bikes) against other clauses from earlier where it specifically states vehicle and bicycles therefore making a distinction between the two.

Either way 5mph is a ridiculous speed limit, even if it is a shared use path.
Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Mark1978 »

Flinders wrote:I read that the limit in this instance was 5mph, a speed at which the slightest bump would tip me over sideways onto anything alongside, which could easily include a pensioner, a child, or a dog.
I walk at 4mph on the flat, surely anyone jogging would be going faster than 5mph. And if this is where the horses go, a horse walks at 4mph or more, and trots at 6-8mph, though trotting racers go at anything up to 30mph.
Are horses allowed to trot in the park?


Even just ambling along on my bike putting in zero effort on the flat I would imagine I would be travelling in excess of 5mph. Staying below 5mph would require some effort.
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by beardy »

There is some confusion about Park Police or the MET on that roadcc website.

Having watched Jeremy Vine's video clip that Policeman appeared to have MET written on his chest.
Does that mean it wasnt the Park Police after all or are the Park Police from within the MET?
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Mick F »

I don't know how they can enforce a speed limit for a bicycle when having a speedometer isn't a legal requirement.
Mick F. Cornwall
Postboxer
Posts: 1929
Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Postboxer »

Do they fine any children? Even a small child on a balance bike could easily break 5 mph.
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Bicycler »

Mick F wrote:I don't know how they can enforce a speed limit for a bicycle when having a speedometer isn't a legal requirement.

It is consistent with speed limits applying to those boats and motor vehicles which are not required to have speedometers

Similarly, the limits of 35 mg of alcohol per 100 ml of breath, 80 mg per 100 ml of blood, or 107 mg per 100 mls of urine apply to drivers who are required to carry neither breathalysers nor blood or urine testing devices :wink:

In this case I think 5mph is fairly easy to judge in all honesty. I strongly suspect that they are fining those significantly exceeding the speed limit like Vine was rather than those travelling at 6 or 7. Anybody can tell the difference between 5 and 10.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Vorpal »

Mark1978 wrote:
Flinders wrote:I read that the limit in this instance was 5mph, a speed at which the slightest bump would tip me over sideways onto anything alongside, which could easily include a pensioner, a child, or a dog.
I walk at 4mph on the flat, surely anyone jogging would be going faster than 5mph. And if this is where the horses go, a horse walks at 4mph or more, and trots at 6-8mph, though trotting racers go at anything up to 30mph.
Are horses allowed to trot in the park?


Even just ambling along on my bike putting in zero effort on the flat I would imagine I would be travelling in excess of 5mph. Staying below 5mph would require some effort.

Just ambling along with tandem & trailer, with an 8 year old and a 5 year old, we go 7 - 8 mph, even if Mini V puts her feet up.

Mick F wrote:I don't know how they can enforce a speed limit for a bicycle when having a speedometer isn't a legal requirement.


Do you need a speedometer to know when you are going too fast? As others state above, a speedometer isn't necessary to enforce a law. If the speedometer of your car is broken, you can still be done for speeding. You *may* avoid points if you can show that it was broken, and you have subsequently had it repaired.

Actually, the UK is the only country that I'm aware of where speed limits do not generally apply to bicycles. However, the German laws for *national* speed limits seem to say 'motor vehicles', while the laws for posted speed limits only say 'vehicles'. So it's possible that pedal cyclists do not need to comply with national speed limits in Germany, but do need to comply with posted speed limits. Most countries include cyclists indirectly by defining them as vehicles, then stating that speed limits apply to all vehicles, unless the vehicle has a lower speed limit according to it's class.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
snibgo
Posts: 4604
Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by snibgo »

This seems to be a case of the police enforcing a law that no one knew existed -- or perhaps doesn't actually exist.

If bikes are limited to the same limits as motor vehicles in Royal Parks, that's one thing. But if we are subject to lower speed limits, this should be clear in legislation and signage. If the police are allowed to enforce laws that aren't really laws, this is seriously bad news. It becomes literally a police state.

And that's before the stupidly low limit of 5mph. I can't manouevre properly at that speed.
User avatar
BSRU
Posts: 265
Joined: 7 Jul 2010, 9:53am

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by BSRU »

According to a tweet from Mr Vine "The Royal Parks" have stated they would like cyclists to adhere to the 5mph speed limit even though it is not legally enforceable. The 5mph speed limit applies to all park users.
Postboxer
Posts: 1929
Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Postboxer »

Can't go for a jog then, or play fetch a dog, or take your kids.
sore thumb
Posts: 242
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 10:27am

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by sore thumb »

So going at 5mph is essentially a cycle ban.
You might as well walk next to your bike.

There should be a mass protest of everyone running next to their bikes.

Going faster than 5mph but not actually cycling.
Postboxer
Posts: 1929
Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Postboxer »

What speed does a beginner ride at, when they've just learnt to ride i.e. fast enough for balancing to become easier?
Postboxer
Posts: 1929
Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Speeding cyclists on LBC now

Post by Postboxer »

They discussed this on Jeremy Vine on BBC Radio 2 earlier, now on iplayer, I didn't hear it myself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04mv9hf

Starts at 1:38:25
Post Reply