Acceptable overtake?

[Bonefishblues]

This latter one does, I can feel the pass as it's made.

[AlaninWales]

The videos just dont get across (to me , at least) how close the overtakes are in real life.

This latter one does, I can feel the pass as it's made.

Agreed. First (light coloured) car passes as per the HC; the next (dark coloured) leaves the cyclist less than half the carriagway and already pulling back to avoid oncoming. Had the cyclist had any problems (poor road surface, cross wind etc) the car would not have missed.

[pete75]

I don't know what Edward's of Downham Market does, but after today's overtake, I won't trade with them.

They make and deliver sandwiches and other snacks.

[ian s]

This post has amazed me. I reckon I see dodgy overtaking manoeuvres more days that I am out on the bike than I don't, many vastly worse than the shown on the video. This is not a recent problem either, though it has become more frequent now. As to how anyone stops it happening, I really don't know, because there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of idiot drivers.

[TonyR]

As to how anyone stops it happening, I really don't know, because there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of idiot drivers.

I think the answer is to get a copy of Cyclecraft, read it and follow the advice. In my experience there is a big difference in riding styles between those who have lots of problems and those like myself that have them rarely and most of it is down to confidence, assertion and controlling the traffic with road positioning.

[Postboxer]

I agree that road positioning etc helps, but at the end of the day, it shouldn't be the job of the cyclist to have to control what everyone else is doing. It's a bit like the headphones whilst cycling argument, it shouldn't be a problem as whatever is coming up behind should be being driven safely. So these problems really need tackling from the other end, ie. the drivers.

[TonyR]

I agree that road positioning etc helps, but at the end of the day, it shouldn't be the job of the cyclist to have to control what everyone else is doing. It's a bit like the headphones whilst cycling argument, it shouldn't be a problem as whatever is coming up behind should be being driven safely. So these problems really need tackling from the other end, ie. the drivers.

I'm not sure its that easy. The problem is most drivers have problems reading the subliminal signals that cyclists send out and so find themselves surprised by what unfolds in front of them. The two ways to counter this problem are either through safety in numbers - the more cyclists there are on the road the more that drivers learn to read cyclists' body language* - or to cycle like a car - position yourself on the road and behave like a car with assertiveness and confidence that sends body language they can read.

Cyclist in the gutter - out of my way, don't need to worry about them, just carry on driving in a straight line past them. Cyclist in secondary - vehicle in front of me, have to slow down and pass them when there's space.

* not actually body language but positioning and angling of the vehicle etc send all sorts of subliminal messages about what the vehicle is about to do.

[Bonefishblues]

I agree that road positioning etc helps, but at the end of the day, it shouldn't be the job of the cyclist to have to control what everyone else is doing. It's a bit like the headphones whilst cycling argument, it shouldn't be a problem as whatever is coming up behind should be being driven safely. So these problems really need tackling from the other end, ie. the drivers.

I'm not sure its that easy. The problem is most drivers have problems reading the subliminal signals that cyclists send out and so find themselves surprised by what unfolds in front of them. The two ways to counter this problem are either through safety in numbers - the more cyclists there are on the road the more that drivers learn to read cyclists' body language* - or to cycle like a car - position yourself on the road and behave like a car with assertiveness and confidence that sends body language they can read.

* not actually body language but positioning and angling of the vehicle etc send all sorts of subliminal messages about what the vehicle is about to do.

I agree - we have got into this sort of "defensive cycle" I think, whereby cars now simply expect cyclists to adjust their riding to accommodate the car, irrespective of what the Highway code might say about priority in a given situation - because that's what cyclists now do.

Witness the surprise from cyclists when I hold back and wait for them to signal to turn right across me, having read what they intend to do.

[mjr]

I questioned road position after the first film and I realise I'm not sure exactly where on the bike the camera is mounted (mine is on the left side on some bikes because the light or gear shifters are on the right, so it makes overtakes look further away than they are!). The reply was basically that it was a fairly wide bike+trailer. That street is fairly narrow so a trailer bike doesn't really have a secondary position.

The stretch in the second video (I think it's http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28389561 ) is nasty: it's a slight rise past the garden centre on the right, so cycles slow down a bit, but too many drivers maybe are already thinking about how long the queues at the crossroads at the southern end are going to delay them, rather than concentrating on the street in front of them. Ironically, their careless driving probably helps deter people from cycling, so putting more cars on the road and delaying them!

[ian s]

What a pompous attitude TonyR has. It happens even if, as I frequently do, I take the lane; cars overtake completely on the wrong side of the road around blind bends etc. Postboxer is correct, the drivers are the problem, and there is nothing cyclists can do about some of them. It is nothing to do with missing subliminal signals cyclists emit, it is simply very bad driving.

Why TonyR assumes I cycle in the gutter I do not know; he is pontificating about things he does not know about, and I suggest all treat his contributions in view of this

[stork]

To reply to the earlier point, that the videos don't show how close the overtakes are, I don't think that they were that close to me (although they were closer than I would like). My concern was more that they were cutting it very fine, so that if they then swerved back too early they'd conflict with me. Also that they are just plain aggressive, alarming to the oncoming vehicle, and offputting to anyone trying to enjoy cycling along there.

In relation to road positioning, I'm normally in secondary along here. Partly because that should be enough to deter dangerous overtaking (although it obviously isn't!), as the lanes are quite narrow. Partly because the road is smoother in the tyre-wear areas of secondary than in primary. The bike is long rather than wide, but I keep well clear of the gutter.

Here's another one -- on the way to school this time:

http://youtu.be/UQbz1IR8c-Y

[Bicycler]

I agree - we have got into this sort of "defensive cycle" I think, whereby cars now simply expect cyclists to adjust their riding to accommodate the car, irrespective of what the Highway code might say about priority in a given situation - because that's what cyclists now do.

Witness the surprise from cyclists when I hold back and wait for them to signal to turn right across me, having read what they intend to do.

Off on a tangent perhaps but I think they are right to be cautious. Whilst everybody likes a show of courtesy you have to be very sure that is what is occurring before making a move, not simply a driver slowing because they are distracted or for some other reason. I'm always wary where somebody gives me priority that would normally be theirs, particularly considering that other road users may not be expecting it.

Probably a better example of your point is the way that cyclists are expected to ride in the gutter or to pull into it or onto the pavement to allow cars to pass. In the past I have been told off for being "IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD!!!" (primary), in the outside lane of a dual carriageway (overtaking stationary traffic), not using pavement cycle paths ("there's a cycle path over there") , using pavement cycle paths ("why are you on the pavement?"), "holding up cars" (until the designated passing space 100m further down the road ) and for riding on country lanes at night ("you're aren't supposed to ride along here at this time of night are you? "). The rules which apply to cyclists and the rules drivers think apply to cyclists are very different.

[Phil Fouracre]

Love it! Heard all the above comments, except, riding country roads at night. Looking forward to that one!!

[stork]

I'm always wary where somebody gives me priority that would normally be theirs

I agree. I'm also wary even where somebody gives me priority that would normally be mine, for exactly the reasons you mention.

This morning, the cream mini whose overtake was exemplary in the first video decided to cut it fine this morning. My position was closer to primary this time, but that seemed to be no deterrent!

http://youtu.be/REkmXdLhkrk

[Bonefishblues]

I agree - we have got into this sort of "defensive cycle" I think, whereby cars now simply expect cyclists to adjust their riding to accommodate the car, irrespective of what the Highway code might say about priority in a given situation - because that's what cyclists now do.

Witness the surprise from cyclists when I hold back and wait for them to signal to turn right across me, having read what they intend to do.

Off on a tangent perhaps but I think they are right to be cautious. Whilst everybody likes a show of courtesy you have to be very sure that is what is occurring before making a move, not simply a driver slowing because they are distracted or for some other reason. I'm always wary where somebody gives me priority that would normally be theirs, particularly considering that other road users may not be expecting it.

Probably a better example of your point is the way that cyclists are expected to ride in the gutter or to pull into it or onto the pavement to allow cars to pass. In the past I have been told off for being "IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD!!!" (primary), in the outside lane of a dual carriageway (overtaking stationary traffic), not using pavement cycle paths ("there's a cycle path over there") , using pavement cycle paths ("why are you on the pavement?"), "holding up cars" (until the designated passing space 100m further down the road ) and for riding on country lanes at night ("you're aren't supposed to ride along here at this time of night are you? "). The rules which apply to cyclists and the rules drivers think apply to cyclists are very different.

No, I don't think that's a better example of what I was saying tbh. I'm talking about a scenario where the cyclist has priority, and what I see as a cycle of reinforcement where drivers don't expect cyclists to assert it. I am deliberately not talking about abuse meted out for same.