The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by toomsie »

kwackers wrote:Which brings us back to the safety equipment being forced on lorry drivers in London (as an obvious example of what I'm saying) and something I notice you didn't address.
Such equipment would never happen if there wasn't an interventionist policy by government. It wouldn't even have been thought of let alone built and tested.


Perhaps, I do not have an answer. But there are answers and solutions. We will never get a chance to find out because government crowds out any kind of innovation. Innovation isn't only about making flying machines that are heavier then most peoples houses, or network of computers that can give you almost any information you ask , its about innovation in management approaches and styles.

Perhaps, in a free market the road owners would attempt to please cyclist as well as truck drivers or less either customer. They can impose rule that any cars using their roads needs safety equipment that protects the interest of the cyclist. This will vary from different road owners.

Anyway, got a lot of hussling to do. Feel free to ask more questions
here is a video about about the wonders of the state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNRzI64L9Q
I always get detracted by hill decent youtube vidoes.
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by kwackers »

toomsie wrote:Historically America became the richest most successful country because it broke free from European bureaucracy and started of with the smallest government. The founding fathers put into the constitution laws that limit powers of state. Migrants traveled from around the world to make their fortunes in America. Even here in the UK, back in the 50,60.70 it was easier to get because government did not meddle so much in free trade. An average household could afford to have a stay at home mother because the man did not have to pay so much tax.

I'm not convinced of that. At that time free trade was pretty much the norm here, it was only exports and imports that were tightly controlled but imported goods generally benefited the rich, poor folk bought local goods. Imports and exports were controlled to maximise profits for wealthy factory owners and British goods found their way across most of the globe.
For your average person little of this mattered. There was no government intervention, if you died because the factory owner couldn't be bothered maintaining machinery then that was tough. If he cranked up the steam pressure to run more looms from his engine and it exploded again that was tough. Health and safety didn't exist and factory owners had political clout and the prols were simply a commodity.

As for affording "stay at home mothers", that's got nothing to do with free trade and everything to do with house inflation related to car use and an increase in working mothers.
A combination of cars providing the ability for people to work further from home and having more women in the workplace simply meant more income which manifested itself as house price inflation, particularly in the more 'popular' areas. Eventually you end up in a position where house prices force you to have two incomes to afford them. Slightly simplistic, but if you take house prices away from peoples incomes you find most folk can afford to have a stay at home parent.

In the 'states the average working person is no better off now than they were in the 80's, in fact the evidence is the working & middle classes have at best stagnated with most of the 'growth' going to the wealthiest percentile something that we're starting to experience now in this country.
And of course the political influence of corporations in the states makes ours look amateurish in comparison but it provides a good model of what's possible if you basically give in and allow the big boys free reign.
Then of course 'free trade' really means 'swamped by cheap crap' so you can wave goodbye to what little manufacturing you currently have left.
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by toomsie »

kwackers wrote:I'm not convinced of that. At that time free trade was pretty much the norm here, it was only exports and imports that were tightly controlled but imported goods generally benefited the rich, poor folk bought local goods. Imports and exports were controlled to maximise profits for wealthy factory owners and British goods found their way across most of the globe.
For your average person little of this mattered. There was no government intervention, if you died because the factory owner couldn't be bothered maintaining machinery then that was tough. If he cranked up the steam pressure to run more looms from his engine and it exploded again that was tough. Health and safety didn't exist and factory owners had political clout and the prols were simply a commodity.


Perhaps, there was a few anti competitive laws back then. but since then law on top of law and red tap on top of red tape has been created. Thousands of new laws are created yearly, at least in the States. These laws serve to make lawyers and the state a bigger part of the economy. You can bet most of these laws are only to serve corporate lobbyist to create barriers to entry for its competition.

Back then was a dangerous play. Its a shame we didn't live have internet back then. If we did,we would soon know what companies was dangerous to work and what ones are safe. Since jobs was easy to find back then (in the old day) workers would have the option to work in a safe environment. And competing companies in order to attract workers would have to make their environment safer then the competitions . I believe that working environment did become safer from the 1900 for the same reason.

Ebay is a fine example of trade that doesn't need government interference. The trader has an incentive to provide a good service or get bad feedback. Almost all disputes get handled Ebay. If a trader is selling counterfeit or broken goods and does not pay restitution then there Ebay account is closed. No police, no courts, lawyers. Ebay has an incentive to protect customers interest. If it does not then customers will take their custom elsewhere. Amazon is generally more trusted then Ebay but Ebay is cheaper. Your free to choose what you want.

In Free Market Economy or (Ebay or Amazon) it is good trusted companies that protect the customer against bad ones. In a socialist one, there are bureaucrats and lawyers and laws, They will charge what they feel because they know that you will pay.

Stossel talks about ebay in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HucEOBf9OMs

Regarding the housing problem. If you are correct I will be waiting for house price correction as folk cannot get on the housing ladder. Some places in the States houses are very cheap , such as the Detroit but there is no stay at home mother communities. :twisted: When families go to work the husband pays for family upkeep and utilities including childcare and the wife pays government taxes, including sales tax, property tax, inflation tax :lol: and the other hidden taxes that get passed on directly indirectly.
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by kwackers »

toomsie wrote:Ebay is a fine example of trade that doesn't need government interference. The trader has an incentive to provide a good service or get bad feedback. Almost all disputes get handled Ebay. If a trader is selling counterfeit or broken goods and does not pay restitution then there Ebay account is closed. No police, no courts, lawyers. Ebay has an incentive to protect customers interest. If it does not then customers will take their custom elsewhere. Amazon is generally more trusted then Ebay but Ebay is cheaper. Your free to choose what you want.

LMAO!
So you've replaced government regulation with big corp regulation (and make no mistake eBay and Amazon are big corporations), how exactly is that better? You don't really have any rights (other than those provided by the government anyway).

There's a *lot* of counterfeit stuff on both eBay and Amazon. Some of it is very good - at least to look at. And most folk buy it and assume they've got the real deal. A few spot the issue and in all fairness the seller often refunds the money promptly - but the reality is they make a killing selling crap whilst refunding very little.
There are a number of other scams too, selling lots of low value items and occasionally losing high value ones so that the feedback is mostly positive. Counterfeit 'proof of postage' labels (amazing how hard it is to get Paypal to give you your money back if the seller conjures one up) and of course the old classic 'brick-in-a-box'. Faced with refunding a high value item or believing the seller that you're trying to pull a fast one claiming they've sent you a brick, who do they believe?

It's worth pointing out that the reason eBay, Amazon and other such companies offer such 'great' service is a lot less to do with their altruism and more to do with keeping within the law regarding remote sales. eBay has for the longest time tried to escape distance selling regs and their partner company Paypal has been trying to escape being classed as a 'payment' system claiming instead they're simply transferring money around. Turns out the consumer side of 'the man' has never been that impressed by either claim and as a result they've changed their working practices whilst suckering in the punters making them think they're the good guys.

It's a bit like buying a car.
People buy cars these days and are impressed by the long warranties on offer. They think the car companies offer these warranties out of the goodness of their hearts.
What they fail to realise is that consumer laws say that any item that you buy must last a "reasonable length of time" and must be "fit for purpose". Turns out that regardless of what car manufactures would have you believe, no sane person thinks a car should only last a year and in fact even if it only came with a 1 year warranty you'd have no problem getting them to fix problems several years down the line.
Faced with such legislation the manufacturers simply extended the warranties to give folk what they already were entitled to anyway and then sold themselves as the good guys.
In the meantime in the 'good old U.S of A, good old capitalism means most items come with a 90 day warranty and if it breaks then it's tough titty.

As for the internet providing feedback on the quality of goods. I've never found that to be true - at least not in any useful way.
You can pick pretty much anything and find a whole raft of conflicting reports. In some cases fanboys will big up one product whilst denouncing a competitors product often having never owned either. And then you've the issue of how to evaluate feedback. What value 1000 complaints? If the company has only sold 1000 items then obviously that's pretty grim, but if they've sole 100 million???
Finally in order for there to be feedback someone somewhere has to take the plunge and buy the product first and without consumer law and no reliable reviews that's a bit of a risk, particularly with high value items.

Anyway, consumer laws are just a tiny bit of what governments do for you. You're molly coddled and protected pretty well from cradle to grave... ;)
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by toomsie »

Thanks very much for your reply. I don’t know if you given it plenty of thought but you have given it plenty of time.

The Socialist approach to protecting customers is to put regulation is place(by government) so companies HAVE to provide the minimum service, specified by government.

Capitalist approach to protecting customers is via healthy competition. A company has to beet competition by providing a better service.

You are right when you said car companies do not provide warranties for the kindness of their own heart. They provide warranties to attract customers away from the competition. I am sure that most car companies provide more then the minimum required by law. There are companies that provide very long warranties.
I have been buying and selling on Amazon and EBay with very little problem. But I am sure that the feedback system is not quite perfect( neither is governments) but it is always in the process of improvement. They have to improve or lose out the other trading sites. Ebay at the moment is under pressure to up its game.
If there was unfilled gap in the market for reliability and customer service( impossible in the free market). Insurance companies would provide cover and extended warranties
Got a few more words to say but got to get back to work.
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by kwackers »

toomsie wrote:A company has to beet competition by providing a better service.

What a warm cosy world you live in. So simple...

We can argue the detail all day but basically that statement is where it all starts to go wrong. It's also interesting you take a view on market forces that isn't even supported by most capitalists...
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by toomsie »

kwackers wrote:
toomsie wrote:A company has to beet competition by providing a better service.

What a warm cosy world you live in. So simple...
[quote]

Yes, I guess it is. My job security comes about through my human capital, and thats improving every day. There is a chance that an e commerce website might drop me, Etsy Ebay or Amazon. That will only free up some of my time to do other projects. Looking at it I am kind of greateful. Thing could have turned out a lot worse.

Kwackers if you know any socialist youtube vidoes feel free to send them my way.
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: The financial cost/loss of UK Road incidents £15Billion

Post by toomsie »

kwackers wrote:interesting you take a view on market forces that isn't even supported by most capitalists...


Not my views as such. Its inline with Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand and austrian school of economics.
Post Reply