To get to the RHS gardens at Wisley from London the simplest way of getting under the M25 is Muddy Lane :
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.32609 ... vgOjKw!2e0
We cycled this way for many years but gates and No Cycles signs have appeared together with an abusive resident. Since the alternative routes involve long diversions onto even muddier tracks we resorted to pushing but the landowner claims that even this is forbidden.
CTC briefing is that this is a grey area legally but he is probably wrong.
What to do ? offer 20p for any damage to his nettles and advise him to sue if he can show that more damage has been caused ?
Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
He sounds a bit odd. You may need to be careful.
Being in the right is no good if someone is, well, strange.
Being in the right is no good if someone is, well, strange.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Woking Cycle group seem to have some sort of application in hand but local government is very very slow from reading, with other applications for other issues well in front (seemingly taking weeks if not months for each)
http://www.wokingcycle.org.uk/muddy-lane/
Worst the landowner could do is attempt a civil case for trespass, they'd need your ID for that and I'm sure the police just aren't interested..I'd cycle down it and just ignore the idiots, pushing a bike down it and they still gave you hassle..wow.
http://www.wokingcycle.org.uk/muddy-lane/
Worst the landowner could do is attempt a civil case for trespass, they'd need your ID for that and I'm sure the police just aren't interested..I'd cycle down it and just ignore the idiots, pushing a bike down it and they still gave you hassle..wow.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
The CTC's opinion is not the most neutral and the reasons they cite are dubious. The truth is this has never been tested in court but it is probably technically a trespass to defy the landowner's wishes by pushing a vehicle down a footpath. As you are probably aware, trespass is a civil matter so the owner's options are largely limited to telling you to go back or an improbable trip to court. If it were me I have to say that I would consider altering my route to keep the peace.
The one thing I would be very wary of is that no entry sign in the google streetview image. Assuming that sign has been properly placed you are committing a criminal offence if you ride past it. The whole of the lane may be covered by a traffic regulation order which may prohibit you from riding at any point along the lane. It is highly unlikely that the TRO prohibits you from pushing a bike but it may be worth checking with the council what exactly it does say.
EDIT: Thanks to Tony. If there is an existing Definitive Map Modification Order (DMMO) application being processed then there is a good chance that there is already a right to cycle down that lane. If the application is accepted then you will once again be able to cycle down it regardless of the landowner's wishes (though still subject to any TRO). In the meantime make sure you and your friends support the application by providing supporting evidence of how long and how often you have used the lane on your bike. It is not a strict matter of the volume of users but the more people who have used the route, the more compelling is the argument that a right to cycle down the lane had come into existence. Same with people who have used the route years previously, it is all helpful for building up a picture of the reputation of the route as a public right of way over many years. If you know any horse riders who may have used the route get them on side too. Their evidence counts towards claiming a bridleway or byway (it will be one or other but I'm not sure which the cycle campaign have claimed) which you can then use on your bike.
The one thing I would be very wary of is that no entry sign in the google streetview image. Assuming that sign has been properly placed you are committing a criminal offence if you ride past it. The whole of the lane may be covered by a traffic regulation order which may prohibit you from riding at any point along the lane. It is highly unlikely that the TRO prohibits you from pushing a bike but it may be worth checking with the council what exactly it does say.
EDIT: Thanks to Tony. If there is an existing Definitive Map Modification Order (DMMO) application being processed then there is a good chance that there is already a right to cycle down that lane. If the application is accepted then you will once again be able to cycle down it regardless of the landowner's wishes (though still subject to any TRO). In the meantime make sure you and your friends support the application by providing supporting evidence of how long and how often you have used the lane on your bike. It is not a strict matter of the volume of users but the more people who have used the route, the more compelling is the argument that a right to cycle down the lane had come into existence. Same with people who have used the route years previously, it is all helpful for building up a picture of the reputation of the route as a public right of way over many years. If you know any horse riders who may have used the route get them on side too. Their evidence counts towards claiming a bridleway or byway (it will be one or other but I'm not sure which the cycle campaign have claimed) which you can then use on your bike.
Last edited by Bicycler on 27 Oct 2014, 6:52pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Cycle along it but deliver the resident in question a love letter every time, thus giving you a need for access.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Bicycler wrote:...EDIT: Thanks to Tony. If there is an existing Definitive Map Modification Order (DMMO) application being processed then there is a good chance that there is already a right to cycle down that lane. If the application is accepted then you will once again be able to cycle down it regardless of the landowner's wishes (though still subject to any TRO)....
That's probably the only thing to have changed since we last discussed this exact stretch of path: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71617&p=621082#p620552
The application itself is for bridleway status and can be found here: http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/environment- ... 29-byfleet
High on a cocktail of flossy teacakes and marmalade
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
pick up the bike and carry it until u are past the twit? there is no law about carrying bikes on foot paths? see him explode a gasket and have a heart attack
The no entry sign looks phoney. it seems to be on private land. I cant see the council putting up 2 no entry signs one on either side.
I think the no entry is the wrong sign to use?
should be this no through road-
The no entry sign looks phoney. it seems to be on private land. I cant see the council putting up 2 no entry signs one on either side.
I think the no entry is the wrong sign to use?
should be this no through road-
- no through road.gif (4.06 KiB) Viewed 6813 times
Last edited by mercalia on 27 Oct 2014, 8:18pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
According to the OS Map:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=50 ... ey,+Surrey
it's still only a footpath, but it is a Public Right of Way (on map, short green dashes mean FP/RoW). That precludes cycling along it, unfortunately, but I can't see how wheeling a bike can also be excluded. Unless your abusive landowner is first cousin to Mr Hoogstraten, that is....
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=50 ... ey,+Surrey
it's still only a footpath, but it is a Public Right of Way (on map, short green dashes mean FP/RoW). That precludes cycling along it, unfortunately, but I can't see how wheeling a bike can also be excluded. Unless your abusive landowner is first cousin to Mr Hoogstraten, that is....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
A bicycle is a vehicle.
You are not permitted to propel a vehicle along a public footpath.
You can carry it, but not push it, because pushing it is "propelling" it.
You need a driving license to push a motor vehicle along a public road.
You can't push a car along a public footpath, but you can pick it up and carry it.
You are not permitted to propel a vehicle along a public footpath.
You can carry it, but not push it, because pushing it is "propelling" it.
You need a driving license to push a motor vehicle along a public road.
You can't push a car along a public footpath, but you can pick it up and carry it.
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
From Plymouth Council website, I realise it's not the underlying legislation but I'm happy with it as a summary for the purpose of this discussion.
To my knowledge you won't find case law to back up the assertion that a bicycle is not a 'usual accompaniment'. I imagine the opinion that it is not a 'usual accompaniment' stems from a bicycle being a carriage and a vehicle. There's no doubt in my mind that it remains an accompaniment whether you wheel it or carry it, less clear cut may be folding it up and putting it in a bag.
What we need is a test case
.
What are my rights on a Public Right of Way?
As a user of a public rights of way you have the legal right of passage for the purpose of passing and repassing and for purposes reasonably incidental thereto. This basically means you may walk (or cycle, ride a horse or drive depending on the paths status) along the path and back again as you so wish, you may stop to rest, admire the view, take photographs and may consume refreshments as long as you do not cause an obstruction.
You may also take with you a 'usual accompaniment', the legal definition of a usual accompaniment is not defined and current lists are not exhaustive, however on a public footpath a dog, pram or pushchair for example are considered a 'usual accompaniment' of a pedestrian but a bicycle is not and might be considered an act of trespass. You may also use an electric wheelchair or invalid carriage on a footpath.
To my knowledge you won't find case law to back up the assertion that a bicycle is not a 'usual accompaniment'. I imagine the opinion that it is not a 'usual accompaniment' stems from a bicycle being a carriage and a vehicle. There's no doubt in my mind that it remains an accompaniment whether you wheel it or carry it, less clear cut may be folding it up and putting it in a bag.
What we need is a test case
.High on a cocktail of flossy teacakes and marmalade
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
To my knowledge you won't find case law to back up the assertion that a bicycle is not a 'usual accompaniment'. I imagine the opinion that it is not a 'usual accompaniment' stems from a bicycle being a carriage and a vehicle. There's no doubt in my mind that it remains an accompaniment whether you wheel it or carry it
I agree with Gaz on that one.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Yep, I agree too I suppose.
............ the OP was asking about pushing a bike, remember.
Yep, pushing it could be ok.
Just try pushing a car along a footpath.
What's the difference?
............ the OP was asking about pushing a bike, remember.
Yep, pushing it could be ok.
Just try pushing a car along a footpath.
What's the difference?
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Mick F wrote:A bicycle is a vehicle.
You are not permitted to propel a vehicle along a public footpath.
You can carry it, but not push it, because pushing it is "propelling" it.
I wonder? I would think "propel" would have to be clearly defined in terms of how the vehicle is meant to be used n and not the degree of contact with the ground ( as is implied ) other wise what about if only one wheel just touches? or touches for 1 sec out of 2 lol
Last edited by mercalia on 27 Oct 2014, 8:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
mercalia wrote:The no entry sign looks phoney. it seems to be on private land. I cant see the council putting up 2 no entry signs one on either side.
I think the no entry is the wrong sign to use?
Virtually all land is private. The council can regulate traffic travelling along any public highway (which this lane is). It is not uncommon to prohibit vehicles from using public footpaths as shortcuts. However, I agree with you that the signs (one at either end of the lane) seem unusual. I would normally expect to see "no vehicles" or "no motor vehicles" signs (maybe with "except for access" plates) if a TRO is in force
Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.
Tonyf33 wrote:Woking Cycle group seem to have some sort of application in hand but local government is very very slow from reading, with other applications for other issues well in front (seemingly taking weeks if not months for each)
http://www.wokingcycle.org.uk/muddy-lane/
.
Thanks - I had thought that had been denied ; so can live in hope.
