Clipping and running

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Tonyf33
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Tonyf33 »

[XAP]Bob wrote:He did start to slow, as you say he stopped pedalling.

The person in front then made a ferociously abrupt move

He didn't 'slow' he stopped pedalling instead of moving and dabbing the brakes to give the guy room. The guy in front clearly indicated AND made an audible warning so the guy behind had plenty of time to slow and/or move to the inside line to give him space. So.. why didn't he do that on seeing that the cyclist in front was intending to move left? At what point was he going to move/slow down to allow the cyclist in front to make his manouvre..ever/never?? Or was he going to force him to hold his line in which case the incident would have happened no matter how fast he went across as going across slowly would still have had the same end result.
Again I'll repeat myself..what IF the cyclist/s in front had to move suddenly to avoid a pothole, then what? The cyclist behind has not acted accordingly IMO, yes the cyclist in front should have shoulder checked but if the cyclist behind won't give you the space how the heck is the guy in front meant to get across??
..ferocious..really? :roll:
Postboxer
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Postboxer »

Wait for him to pass, then wait until it's definitely safe to pull out, then pull out without crashing into people who are clearly visible and travelling in a straight line at a steady speed.
Tonyf33
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Tonyf33 »

So let's put it another way, you're in front of a car in the same lane with you holding central position, you want to turn left as per this vid (presume this is a US vid as they're on the right lane). You signal, you move across and the car hasn't given you enough space and you come into contact with it, who is in the wrong?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Tonyf33 wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:He did start to slow, as you say he stopped pedalling.

The person in front then made a ferociously abrupt move

He didn't 'slow' he stopped pedalling instead of moving and dabbing the brakes to give the guy room. The guy in front clearly indicated AND made an audible warning so the guy behind had plenty of time to slow and/or move to the inside line to give him space. So.. why didn't he do that on seeing that the cyclist in front was intending to move left? At what point was he going to move/slow down to allow the cyclist in front to make his manouvre..ever/never?? Or was he going to force him to hold his line in which case the incident would have happened no matter how fast he went across as going across slowly would still have had the same end result.
Again I'll repeat myself..what IF the cyclist/s in front had to move suddenly to avoid a pothole, then what? The cyclist behind has not acted accordingly IMO, yes the cyclist in front should have shoulder checked but if the cyclist behind won't give you the space how the heck is the guy in front meant to get across??
..ferocious..really? :roll:


If you stop pedalling then you slow down. That's fine - that's appropriate, start to make a gap.
I wouldn't expect anyone to hit their brakes to make a gap for me (although I have done so when it's clear that they wouldn't be able to avoid me if I had taken the corner we were all going for).

The guy then swiped across - that was a very sudden and wide move, and not at all expected.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Phil Fouracre
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Interesting comments! Think it must show the differing expectations between 'serious' cyclists and 'leisure' ones. People jumped in and blamed the front cyclist, which might be expected if you ride in a group. In 'normal' one to one interaction on the road, surely the 'vehicle' behind has to give way, and anticipate the actions of those in front?
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Phil Fouracre wrote:Interesting comments! Think it must show the differing expectations between 'serious' cyclists and 'leisure' ones. People jumped in and blamed the front cyclist, which might be expected if you ride in a group. In 'normal' one to one interaction on the road, surely the 'vehicle' behind has to give way, and anticipate the actions of those in front?


If I'm in lane three and half alongside a vehicle in lane 2 of a motorway I don't expect it to slam the brakes on when I start to indicate - it's my job to ensure a gap is present before I move.

It's not a question of ahead and behind - only one cyclist made a move on the road.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Flinders
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Flinders »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Phil Fouracre wrote:Interesting comments! Think it must show the differing expectations between 'serious' cyclists and 'leisure' ones. People jumped in and blamed the front cyclist, which might be expected if you ride in a group. In 'normal' one to one interaction on the road, surely the 'vehicle' behind has to give way, and anticipate the actions of those in front?


If I'm in lane three and half alongside a vehicle in lane 2 of a motorway I don't expect it to slam the brakes on when I start to indicate - it's my job to ensure a gap is present before I move.

It's not a question of ahead and behind - only one cyclist made a move on the road.



+1
Bicycler
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Bicycler »

I agree, the onus is always on the person making the manoeuver to make sure the way is clear so the issue of fault is pretty clear cut. Of course there is always courtesy. The cyclist behind had time to slow and allow the cyclist much more space to fit in. It is what I would have done in the situation in the video and on a motorway when faced with somebody wishing to pull into my lane
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honesty
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by honesty »

Very similar maneuver to the cars you can see on the motorways now and again, they start the maneuver then indicate. One of my pet hates. OK, he does indicate first then move, but the time gap is so small I would not expect anyone to react that quickly. Definitely the fault of the guy in front, you've got to make sure it's safe to move before making the move...
Mark1978
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Mark1978 »

Tonyf33 wrote:Please explain why in the context of the rules this is 100% the guy in fronts fault?
the guy stuck his arm out AND gave an auidble warning of his intention, and yes that doesn't give him priority and yes he moved over without checking over his shoulder.

That said the chap behind ignored his signal in reality, did not brake, did not adjust his own position & did NOT give him enough space when there WAS ample time (he stopped pedalling if you look), two wrongs don't make a right.
What if the guy in front had hit an obstacle or had to swiftly swerve to avoid something..what then?
the rider behind had ample opportunity to brake and move to the inside..50/50 if you ask me


Nah not 50 50 at all 100% the guy making the move. The general rule on the road is that you and you alone are responsible for making sure it's safe to perform a move. The other guy has no responsibility to facilitate it. Leaving a gap etc is polite but that's all it is, the guy behind has no more responsibility than to hold his line at a constant speed.

If the guy in making the move cannot find a gap he can ease off, let those guys go and *then* make his move across.

This would have been the same if it was cars on the motorway or whatever.

TL;Dr the guy behind is blameless and would be within his rights to sue for personal injury, it's that clear cut.
beardy
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by beardy »

I was out riding in a similar style ride to that yesterday. I was sometimes thinking about that film clip as the positions changed (in that sort of fluidity you get in informal groups like Audax compared to race pelotons), sometimes I was the guy behind and sometimes the guy infront. In every situation I would have thought the guy in front was wrong, when I was in his position I waited for a gap and that meant waiting for the normal flow to create a space or asking for one. When I was behind I would have seen what the guy infront did as causing the accident. There is one proviso though, if there was something on the road that made the guy in front have to make that move as an emergency action, pothole etc.

Though we have hit potholes in formation before and always the people I ride with have hit the pothole rather than sideswipe their companions. Not that they had much chance to make any decision.
AlaninWales
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by AlaninWales »

Phil Fouracre wrote:Interesting comments! Think it must show the differing expectations between 'serious' cyclists and 'leisure' ones. People jumped in and blamed the front cyclist, which might be expected if you ride in a group. In 'normal' one to one interaction on the road, surely the 'vehicle' behind has to give way, and anticipate the actions of those in front?

+1, and illustrative of why I hate riding in groups. I expect any overtaking vehicle to give me room to avoid potholes, leaf litter etc (and have been known to enforce tis agaisnt motor vehicles). Whilst I realise this looks like a club run, comparisons with motorway lanes is IMO excessive (which means it's probably a good thing I would never ride with a club); they are not in lanes and the camera does not show why he neds to turn (he may be avoiding an incident ahead)..
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by [XAP]Bob »

We don't get much "post event" footage, but the camera bike would have moved if there was anything that required avoidance - and didn't.

They aren't in strict lanes, but that's not a free pass to swipe across someone's front wheel.
The move was sudden, was made without checking for safe space and resulted in several cyclists ending up on the floor, the first cyclist to go down looked as though they landed quite hard on their shoulder (i.e. collar bone territory).

When making a manoeuvre in a group (even a temporary group that has formed on the road) you really have to make sure you have enough space to make that manoeuvre...

He knew there was someone just outside him, and he cut across them, taking their front wheel away.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
beardy
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by beardy »

In 'normal' one to one interaction on the road, surely the 'vehicle' behind has to give way, and anticipate the actions of those in front?


I would agree with that and if the cyclist had been behind the accident would not have happened. He was however alongside rather than behind, not much, possibly even only a centimetre but that is what caused the collision.

I think in the highway code it says what you should do while being overtaken and this doesnt fit those instructions. Things may be different in the USA or wherever this was filmed.
Mark1978
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Re: Clipping and running

Post by Mark1978 »

Think of it in terms of driving along the motorway. You're in Lane 1 keeping a nice distance behind the lorry in front. There's plenty of space behind you.

Someone comes alongside in Lane 2 half overlapping you, and puts their left indicator on, before you process anything they've changed lanes right into you, sending you into a spin.

This is what happened here.
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