Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

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niggle
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by niggle »

Pete Owens wrote:I was thinking more of vehicles turning into the car park imediately after the bus stop. The cycle lane to the right of the left hand filter for Hollingdean Road is much less of an issue.


Yes I missed that previously- I take your point.

Pete Owens wrote:So to arrange for the cycle path to be routed behind the bus stop is the least bad solution - a way to minimise the unavoidable conflict.

However, these things seem to have become fashionable as a good thing in their own right - so now we are starting to see on-carriagway cycle lanes diverted round the back of bus stops then back on to the carriageway. This is a really bad idea - you are creating conflict where there was none before.


YouTube clips where they can be seen in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5SXavrvuQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioBXnQz4BwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMUdNkOx4o

My biggest concern is the very minimal extra buffer zone where the cycle lane passes the disabled parking spaces at the town centre end of things, not nearly wide enough to protect against a door flung wide open.
MikeF
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by MikeF »

Pete Owens wrote:So to arrange for the cycle path to be routed behind the bus stop is the least bad solution - a way to minimise the unavoidable conflict.

However, these things seem to have become fashionable as a good thing in their own right - so now we are starting to see on-carriagway cycle lanes diverted round the back of bus stops then back on to the carriageway. This is a really bad idea - you are creating conflict where there was none before.


Routing continuous cycle lanes around the back of bus stops could create conflict with pedestrians, but I don't see that as a "really bad idea". Maybe I'm missing the point of what is being said? The cycle "carriageway" is routed around the bus stop so there isn't a "back onto the carriageway". Where should the cycle lane be or do you mean it should be shared with the bus lane? In other words not have a separate cycle lane.

My biggest concern would be where motor vehicles have to cross the cycle lane to turn left as at Coldean Lane for example.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by Pete Owens »

MikeF wrote:I agree there do seem to be some issues for cyclists in the proposed scheme whereby it appears motor traffic for Hollingdean Rd has to cross a cycle lane as well as for cyclists turning right either from Lewes or from Brighton.
However I don't understand how your plan helps either cyclists or motor vehicles.

The plan isn't intended to help motor vehicles.

The existing layout ie a giratory - is a device to speed the flow of motor traffic at the expense of all other road users. These create fast moving streams merging and filtering traffic that are hostile for cyclists and pedestrians. I would have thought it was entirely uncontroversial that such a layout was very much worse for cyclists than a conventional 2-way street. Thus reverting the layout to a conventional 2-way street (which it will have been at some point in the past) would be a huge help to cyclists.

Sticking cycle lanes round the edge of a giratory does absolutely nothing to help cyclists - it merly reinforces the conflicts that are inherent in the basic layout. Cyclists still have to cross streams of high speed filtering traffic, whether the particular bit of tarmac they are riding on has cycle symbols painted onm it or not.
As far as I can see, a major problem appears to be there just isn't room to do what you are suggesting without demolishing the many properties in the middle of the gyratory.

Nothing in my suggestion involves creating any extra road space. The stretch of Lewes Road that is currently part of the giratory is every bit as wide as the 2-way continuation heading towards Brighton.
For instance at the moment there are 3 lanes going towards Brighton centre, bus/cycle, general traffic and a right filter to Upper Lewes Road.

Indeed so.
And the plan as I explaind would be to convert this to one wide lane heading away from Brighton, and a narrow general traffic narrow lane and a bus lane heading towards Brighton.

True, there would be a reduction in capacity that would make such a proposal anathema to most councils - but we are talking about the green party in power in Brighton - and they have already showed willing to reduce the capacity of the dual carriageway leading to the giratory. This would just mean that that stretch of Lewes Road had a single general traffic lane in each direction - just like the rest of Lewes Road now does.
If you have don't have the gyratory you will lose the filter right lane as this will become the carriageway to Lewes, if I understand your plan correctly, and without the cycle lane :shock:

IF the junction were to be configured as traffic lights then you would need to stop the bus lane on the approach to make way for a short right hand filter lane.
IF it was to be a compact roundabout then there would be no need for the right hand filter.
and without the cycle lane :shock:

As I explained, the aim of the plan is to improve conditions for cyclists - not to find somewhere to paint cycle symbols.
And since narrow cycle lanes such as that make conditions worse for cyclists then not having a cycle lane is a benefit.
Pete Owens
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by Pete Owens »

niggle wrote:
YouTube clips where they can be seen in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5SXavrvuQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioBXnQz4BwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMUdNkOx4o

My biggest concern is the very minimal extra buffer zone where the cycle lane passes the disabled parking spaces at the town centre end of things, not nearly wide enough to protect against a door flung wide open.


OK, looking at the videos you can see that the overall scheme has been a huge improvement - but none of that improvement is due to the cycle specific parts.

There are 3 principle elements:

1: Reallocating one lane in each direction as a bus lane. This on its own would be a great benefit to cyclists by crating a virtually traffic free environment. If you watch the second video from the cyclists perspective I don't think there is a single encounter with a bus.

2: Moving the lane division to the right so that the left hand lane is wider. Again, this on its own would improve conditions for cyclists - though not as much as (1)

3: Installing a narrow cycle lane. (Looking at the videos it looks as if the standard carriageway width of 7.3m has been divided inot a 1.3m cycle lane + 3m bus lane + 3m traffic lane) This on its own would be detrimental to cyclists but is tolerable due to (1). Also it is likely that it wouldn't have occured to them to do (2) other than to make space for this. By installing the cycle lane - they have created several other unnescessary difficulties for cyclists. There are the diversions onto the pavement round the back of the bus shelters, the bits in the door zones of parking bays, the stretches to the left of left hand filter lanes, the bit squeezed between railings and the bus lane.
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mjr
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by mjr »

Actually I think I like gyratories... but only if traffic speeds are cycle speeds... 10 mph or so
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mjr
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote:Well if you look at the detailed scale drawings of the giratory you can see the narrow cycle lane (heading towards Brighton) - much less than the space cyclists need for safety. To see how much worse 1.5m cycle lanes like that make conditions for cyclists take a look at:
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.u ... -lanes.pdf

That report contains unreferenced trolling like "Advocates of cycle lanes argue that a poor quality cycle lane is better than nothing, claiming ...", doesn't include measurements of all lane widths at the observation points and only includes three pairs of measurements. It's not very useful as evidence as it stands. Do the observation points still exist? They look more comparable than most places, so would it be possible to collect more data?

Although King's Lynn might soon have some neighbouring stretches of A-road with and without a narrow advisory cycle lane, against KLWNBUG advice :-( so if we're unsuccessful in getting that changed, we might be able to collect some data next year.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Pete Owens
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by Pete Owens »

mjr wrote:Although King's Lynn might soon have some neighbouring stretches of A-road with and without a narrow advisory cycle lane, against KLWNBUG advice :-( so if we're unsuccessful in getting that changed, we might be able to collect some data next year.


If you get your act together soon enough, that gives you the opportunity to do a before and after comparisson on the same stretch of road. That way there can be no room to dispute that any effeccts you observe are due to the cycle lane itself, rather than any supposed differences between your comparison site.
Pete Owens
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by Pete Owens »

niggle wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:And that plan looks positively lethal. Cyclists are taken off the road to go behind a bus stop then re-emerge onto the carriageway brom behind a stopped bus just at the approach to a junction.


I see what your saying, but the issue will only be with other traffic wanting to enter the left turn lane for Hollingdean Road, the cycle lane is continuous and compulsory before and immediately after the bus stop and protected by being raised by 50mm then 25mm ...


And in case you missed the other thread, here is news of a number of cyclists enjoying that "protection"
http://m.theargus.co.uk/news/11680082._Death_trap__cycle_lane_claims_fourth_victim/?ref=mr
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mjr
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Re: Lewes Road Brighton- new facility any good?

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote:
niggle wrote:I see what your saying, but the issue will only be with other traffic wanting to enter the left turn lane for Hollingdean Road, the cycle lane is continuous and compulsory before and immediately after the bus stop and protected by being raised by 50mm then 25mm ...


And in case you missed the other thread, here is news of a number of cyclists enjoying that "protection"
http://m.theargus.co.uk/news/11680082._Death_trap__cycle_lane_claims_fourth_victim/?ref=mr

Oh dear. Has it been built with square edges instead of sloping ones? I see now that the previously-linked plan doesn't say anything about transitions either way.

Still, a (nother) build error doesn't mean the basic idea wasn't sound... and it doesn't seem to be the bus stop that Pete Owens objected to which is the problem.

Nevertheless, I do agree that changing it to conventional two-way streets instead of a gyratory would be best, whether or not there are cycleways adjacent.
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