Why do we do it?

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simonineaston
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by simonineaston »

Keep in mind the 2 over-arching 'principles' used by the human brain to govern all behaviour - optimism and opportunism...
S
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661-Pete
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by 661-Pete »

binsted wrote:
Phil Fouracre wrote:I'm with the Welshman :D oops, almost forgot, think my tag line might apply!


:D Looks good from my side of the fence :D

Your side of the car door, you mean! OK OK, so you happened to be in the car that day. If you'd been on the bike instead, would you still have entitled the thread "why do we do it?"

I agree, a lot of cyclists can be a bit over-reactive to being labelled with generalisations. It happens rather a lot.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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binsted
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by binsted »

661-Pete wrote:
binsted wrote:
Phil Fouracre wrote:I'm with the Welshman :D oops, almost forgot, think my tag line might apply!


:D Looks good from my side of the fence :D

Your side of the car door, you mean! OK OK, so you happened to be in the car that day. If you'd been on the bike instead, would you still have entitled the thread "why do we do it?"

I agree, a lot of cyclists can be a bit over-reactive to being labelled with generalisations. It happens rather a lot.



Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.
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John1054
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by John1054 »

Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.[/quote]

+1

Understand the original post and wonder why there are always others who insist on potentially messing it up for the majority, human nature?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.
How well do the people you are defending from manage to defend the actions of other motorists? You know, those who kill thousands of people a yearm let alone the maiming and injuring that they do, the threatening and bulling, the wanton destruction they wreak on our cities and roads...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
binsted
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by binsted »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.
How well do the people you are defending from manage to defend the actions of other motorists? You know, those who kill thousands of people a yearm let alone the maiming and injuring that they do, the threatening and bulling, the wanton destruction they wreak on our cities and roads...


What are you rambling on about, I am not in the least interested in how motorists defend themselves. I am concerned with the image that we as cyclists project and when cyclists are killed and I read that somehow they bring it upon themselves because they jump red lights I get annoyed.
kwackers
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by kwackers »

binsted wrote:What are you rambling on about, I am not in the least interested in how motorists defend themselves. I am concerned with the image that we as cyclists project and when cyclists are killed and I read that somehow they bring it upon themselves because they jump red lights I get annoyed.

Do you think if cyclists didn't jump red lights motorists would welcome you to their roads with open arms?

When you've fixed the red light problem, be prepared to have registration plates, pay road tax, always wear a helmet, always wear a hi-vis jacket, have compulsory insurance, compulsory use of cycle lanes (no matter how crap they are), instant fines for riding two abreast etc etc.

And then when you've done all that you'll finally come to realise the reason motorists complain isn't because some cyclists do what some motorists do but because they see you as occupying their space and getting in their way on their roads.
Whining about RLJ'ing is nothing other than an excuse easily replaced with another and another until you're no longer there...
Last edited by kwackers on 10 Sep 2014, 7:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

AdWatch wrote: ... +1

Understand the original post and wonder why there are always others who insist on potentially messing it up for the majority, human nature?


I suspect that they don't see themselves as part of some group whose interests they are damaging. I wonder why anybody feels it necessary to spend time and effort defending lawbreaking by people who wouldn't thank you anyway. Apart from anything else it just triggers accusations of defending lawbreaking. Adopting an untenable position is a quick way to feel uncomfortable in any discussion.
Bicycler
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by Bicycler »

binsted wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.
How well do the people you are defending from manage to defend the actions of other motorists? You know, those who kill thousands of people a yearm let alone the maiming and injuring that they do, the threatening and bulling, the wanton destruction they wreak on our cities and roads...


What are you rambling on about, I am not in the least interested in how motorists defend themselves. I am concerned with the image that we as cyclists project and when cyclists are killed and I read that somehow they bring it upon themselves because they jump red lights I get annoyed.

You are right to be annoyed. However, rather than directing your ire at the rather disparate groups of people with a common mode of conveyance, why don't you get angry at those who insist upon tarring us all with the same brush? The people who write as if some cyclists jumping lights make everybody who dies somehow responsible for their own deaths. As others have said, we do not feel that others poor driving reflects badly upon all of us who drive, even when poor drivers make up a significant proportion of all drivers. We know poor driving is endemic, yet we have the common decency to allow the full investigation of fatal collisions before assuming that the driver brought about their own demise.

My tactic when challenged is not to defend 'cyclists' (that is accepting responsibility for others' actions) but to attack the assumption that we are some kind of homogenous group.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why do (some of us) do it?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

binsted wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Yes I would, I spend a lot of time trying to defend cyclists actions, and when you see "one of your own" giving ammunition to the opposition it makes the job that much harder.
How well do the people you are defending from manage to defend the actions of other motorists? You know, those who kill thousands of people a yearm let alone the maiming and injuring that they do, the threatening and bulling, the wanton destruction they wreak on our cities and roads...


What are you rambling on about, I am not in the least interested in how motorists defend themselves. I am concerned with the image that we as cyclists project and when cyclists are killed and I read that somehow they bring it upon themselves because they jump red lights I get annoyed.


Defence is pointless. The people to whom you are talking are part of another "group" which kills thousands of people a year - Motorists.

It is the motorists who should be defending their actions, not the cyclists.

Note I'm not advocating RLJ or other law breaking, but to let that become the debate is silly - the debate is why we let motorists kill thousands each year, not why a minority of cyclists do the same as a majority of motorists (RLJ)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
rmurphy195
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by rmurphy195 »

Waiting at a red (traffic) light, overtaken by another bike whose rider happily pedalled across the junction - having nearly knocked me off my bike, and with no clear view to her right 'cos of the flatbed tranny next to us.

Caught up with her at the next red light, and asked why she ignored the previous one "There was nothing coming" - "But you couldn't see" - "I could hear there was nothing coming". She departed - again across the red light - as I was informing her that she wouldn't hear my mate's Toyota Prius until it hit her ...

Few weeks later - stopped at red light, a pedestrian crossing this time, near New St station. Another cyclist (another female) went past , ignoring the red light and the people on the crossing.

Is it me?

If I'm in the car, and someone pedals across a red light while I'm turning on green, and I don't see him/her in time 'cos they appear from behind a vehicle - who is at fault, me or the cyclist? And if (hopefully) there is no injury to the cyclist, who pays for the damage to my car? Would I be just another mad car driver knocking cyclists over to get points, or what? And if I take avoiding action to miss the cyclist and collide with another vehicle as a result, what then?
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Bicycler
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by Bicycler »

If you were driving properly and couldn't have seen the cyclist then the cyclist would be at fault. You ought to be able to claim any damages from the cyclist or their insurance company.

Without wishing to condone illegal behaviour, I suspect that even where people choose to ignore the law they tend to be sufficiently aware of their surroundings not to ride into danger. This would explain why these manoeuvers don't seem to result in many cyclist casualties despite reportedly being such a common occurrence. Really a cyclist is in a much better position to observe and proceed with caution than a car driver and I can certainly see why some believe that cyclists should be able to treat red signals effectively as give way markings and proceed where they can see that it is safe to do so. Signals generally exist to maintain traffic flow, something which is rather irrelevant to a cyclist.

BTW, I had a brew sat outside a café the other day with a clear view of one part of a traffic light controlled junction. In twenty or thirty minutes there I saw two cyclists who jumped the red or amber lights...


...and 53 drivers.

We see what we want to see
bensonboo
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by bensonboo »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Note I'm not advocating RLJ or other law breaking, but to let that become the debate is silly - the debate is why we let motorists kill thousands each year, not why a minority of cyclists do the same as a majority of motorists (RLJ)

Majority of motorists RLJ?

Utter rubbish.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Why do we do it?

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

I saw a lorry carrying half a dozen brand new Peugeots jump a red light this morning.

Because I was also driving a truck, albeit a much smaller one, I felt embarrased.

Not.

I just mumbled "chump" under my breath and away he went. Any person or group foolish enough to tar an entire section of society based upon the actions of a single member of that group aren't worth listening to in the first place.
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