Biker's death filmed - horrific.

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Vantage
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Vantage »

It's one thing to speak your mind and get the truth out there, but it needs to be done without upsetting others, especially important when it concerns the loss of life.
The man died from his own mistake of speeding (how many of us aren't guilty of that I wonder?) and someone not looking properly (again, how many of us are completely innocent there too?) and whilst I wouldn't have as much of a problem with someone calling him whatever if he'd walked away with a few scratches and bruises, try and show a little respect.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Bonefishblues »

I ride a huge bright green motorcycle whose twin headlights sit on full beam on bright sunny days



Apropos of nothing is there a debate in motorcycle circles about this practice? I try not to get wound up as a driver but there are few MORE distracting things than a motorcycle approaching from front or rear with flickering full beam.

I understand it's to be seen (I assume) but its very much on the increase it seems to me, and there's a part of me which wonders if it's becoming counterproductive.
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Graham
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Graham »

Tonyf33 :
On this public forum, at this time, I think that your derisory descriptions of the deceased are inappropriate. The tone is wrong and socially unacceptable.

Your comments about risk-taking, putting others at risk and poor judgement are all reasonable.
kwackers
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by kwackers »

Bonefishblues wrote:I ride a huge bright green motorcycle whose twin headlights sit on full beam on bright sunny days



Apropos of nothing is there a debate in motorcycle circles about this practice? I try not to get wound up as a driver but there are few MORE distracting things than a motorcycle approaching from front or rear with flickering full beam.

I understand it's to be seen (I assume) but its very much on the increase it seems to me, and there's a part of me which wonders if it's becoming counterproductive.

I only use it in bright sunlight where imo it's really not that bright.

If the beam is flickering I'd suggest it's actually on dipped, the flickering you see is because the cut off for the dipped beam is roughly in line with your eyes (particularly when when accelerating). Full beam doesn't flicker because it doesn't have a cut off. One of the problems is that motorcycle headlights are physically set quite high.

(You wouldn't be the first motorist I've had flashing me and then switching to full beam to make a point when I'm on dipped lights - something that bizarrely I've never had on full beam! - If I did I'd switch back to dipped).
Bonefishblues
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Bonefishblues »

I don't flash bikers - no point in two people being dazzled.

You might notice me dip my rvm if you were following me with either main beam on or a flickering dip. Means I might not see your overtake beginning though, but it does mean I can better focus on where I'm going.
kwackers
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by kwackers »

Bonefishblues wrote:I don't flash bikers - no point in two people being dazzled.

You might notice me dip my rvm if you were following me with either main beam on or a flickering dip. Means I might not see your overtake beginning though, but it does mean I can better focus on where I'm going.

I should point out it's also a lot worse with a pillion. Very few bikes have self levelling lights and very few motorcyclists set the level when they're carrying a pillion particularly for daytime riding.
Tonyf33
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Tonyf33 »

Graham wrote:Tonyf33 :
On this public forum, at this time, I think that your derisory descriptions of the deceased are inappropriate. The tone is wrong and socially unacceptable.

Your comments about risk-taking, putting others at risk and poor judgement are all reasonable.

Socially unacceptable to whom, you and a few others? I've read plenty of comments on the various videos that are open to the public to comment on that seem to endorse exactly my thoughts that the motorcyclist was a selfish idiot for riding in the way he did.
His family admitted he loved speed so I don't think I'm wrong in saying that he rode like an idiot more often than not, putting himself and others in danger regularly..
Shying away from and not criticising the motorcyclist on public forums really just endorses his actions, we can easily point the finger at the car driver but to not point the finger at the motorcyclist is unacceptable in my eyes, my tone is spot on, the guy drove his bike like a complete and utter idiot with no care for anyone.

But check back on plenty of other threads and see how other posters have openly 'name called' those that have driven/ridden with the same recklessness and endangerment of others and not being criticised the way I have..
I'm not changing my stance because I'm right for one thing and because I'm not afraid to say things how they are not meekly sidle round the issue..YMMV..obviously!
robing
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by robing »

I don't see what's wrong in calling him a selfish idiot- he was. Thank god he didn't kill anyone else with his dangerous riding. Did you see the state of the car after the collision? It's lucky they weren't killed too. Also, a lot of people seem to be missing the point that 60 is a maximum - approaching a junction like this his speed should have been much less and he overtook a vehicle where clearly overtaking was forbidden.
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by kwackers »

robing wrote:I don't see what's wrong in calling him a selfish idiot- he was. Thank god he didn't kill anyone else with his dangerous riding. Did you see the state of the car after the collision? It's lucky they weren't killed too. Also, a lot of people seem to be missing the point that 60 is a maximum - approaching a junction like this his speed should have been much less and he overtook a vehicle where clearly overtaking was forbidden.

Here's a question for you.
What do you think the speed has to do with anything?

Here's my take. The speed simply reduced the chances of him surviving, it made little or no difference to the cause of the accident which was simply that once again a motorist didn't bother looking. Had he been doing 60mph would he have survived? He might, but I suspect probably not.

The fundamental cause of the accident was someone not looking - you might disagree, the court on hearing the evidence didn't.

(That's not to say his riding wasn't stupid but pulling into the path of another vehicle is criminal).
robing
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by robing »

kwackers wrote:
robing wrote:I don't see what's wrong in calling him a selfish idiot- he was. Thank god he didn't kill anyone else with his dangerous riding. Did you see the state of the car after the collision? It's lucky they weren't killed too. Also, a lot of people seem to be missing the point that 60 is a maximum - approaching a junction like this his speed should have been much less and he overtook a vehicle where clearly overtaking was forbidden.

Here's a question for you.
What do you think the speed has to do with anything?

Here's my take. The speed simply reduced the chances of him surviving, it made little or no difference to the cause of the accident which was simply that once again a motorist didn't bother looking. Had he been doing 60mph would he have survived? He might, but I suspect probably not.

The fundamental cause of the accident was someone not looking - you might disagree, the court on hearing the evidence didn't.

(That's not to say his riding wasn't stupid but pulling into the path of another vehicle is criminal).


The speed has everything to do with it. If he had been going a sensible speed, ie well below 60 then yes an impact could still have been fatal, but he would have had more time and may have been able to take avoiding action.

Yes I know the court found the car driver guilty and they were punished accordingly, but with a motorcycle at that speed it may have been difficult to actually see it or appreciate how fast it was coming head on. I'm not excusing the driver, but just put yourself in their shoes, are you positive you would have seen the biker in that situation?
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by Bicycler »

Both of their actions were clearly criminal.

The car driver's was a crime of negligence; getting complacent and failing to look properly resulting in the death of a motorcyclist. I maintain that the car driver was the one mainly responsible for this crash.

The motorcyclists was a crime of arrogance. He knew the law, he will have been told his entire life about the dangers of speeding yet made a conscious decision to do it. The attitude was "the law does not apply to me" or "it won't happen to me...". This attitude possibly resulted in his own death.

Others have been critical of what they see as personal attacks on the deceased because of a video released so that other road users can learn from the incident. I think that in order for those in most need to learn from the actions of the motorcyclist the attitude which is required to perform those actions must be criticised. People who choose to speed and behave that recklessly know what they are doing. They know it is illegal and they know it is dangerous and yet they still choose to do it. No doubt they believe that their skills are such that they are immune from crashing. We've had years of graphic campaigns showing these people that speed kills and it doesn't work. What needs to be challenged is the attitude that this is macho, fun and socially acceptable. In Tony's terms it means making clear to these people that their actions are selfish and idiotic in the eyes of society and (hopefully) their peers.
Last edited by Bicycler on 9 Sep 2014, 12:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
kwackers
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by kwackers »

robing wrote:The speed has everything to do with it. If he had been going a sensible speed, ie well below 60 then yes an impact could still have been fatal, but he would have had more time and may have been able to take avoiding action.

No it doesn't. Look at your use of the word "may". The fact is you don't know.

What you and I both know is that if the driver had looked properly he wouldn't have pulled into the bikes path. That is fundamentally all that we do know anything else is pure speculation.
robing wrote:but just put yourself in their shoes, are you positive you would have seen the biker in that situation?
Obviously I'd like to think I would, I certainly have never pulled into the path of anyone in several decades of driving - probably helps using most modes of transport instead of simply being a cager. Who knows...
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661-Pete
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by 661-Pete »

Tonyf33, what people are getting at you for, is using these words, and I quote:
"one less selfish idiot on the road as far as I'm concerned."

Nobody is questioning the veracity of what you're saying, nor your right to post as you have done. It's just that, this video was released by the victim's parents. It isn't a case of a mad driver arrogantly posting up his own video of his lawbreaking, and then getting himself killed. The parents didn't contribute to his lawbreaking. It must have been hard for them. To see a post like the above could have just made it even harder.

That's all I wanted to say. I leave the rest to you.
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by mjr »

kwackers wrote:Obviously I'd like to think I would, I certainly have never pulled into the path of anyone in several decades of driving - probably helps using most modes of transport instead of simply being a cager. Who knows...

Blooming heck, you must wait for ages to pull out from side roads... and actually, is that even possible because it'll still be the path of someone you can't yet see, won't it?

I often pull into the path of other vehicles, even on my bike, but I try to do it in a way that won't cause them to crash into me or take any further action, which is what I was taught and what the driver in this video seems not to have done.

Sorry to mods and others but I feel that Tonyf33's opinion of the biker is fair comment, although we should note that it's based on evidence about only one tiny part of his life. I'm sorry if it upsets family and friends but it's not going to be the first or last time that they see that opinion. Actually, it sounds like his mother realises he was doing a silly thing, commenting "I’ve done silly things sometimes and I’ve been lucky to get away with them, David wasn’t lucky, the driver wasn’t lucky" in the original story http://www.norfolk.police.uk/newsandeve ... nched.aspx - Death seems a rather harsh penalty for it, but that's what often happens on our roads at the moment.
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kwackers
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Re: Biker's death filmed - horrific.

Post by kwackers »

mjr wrote:Blooming heck, you must wait for ages to pull out from side roads... and actually, is that even possible because it'll still be the path of someone you can't yet see, won't it?

Errr - no. Why would I need to?
Despite what people think gaps do appear and at fairly regular intervals. It'd be a pretty rare event to wait more than a few seconds.

I do appreciate the modern way is to not consider waiting at all let alone that folk actually look and take in what the traffic around them is doing (and never mind giving any smaller vehicles time to pop out from behind road furniture!)
Fortunately the odds are in their favour and no doubt they'll never cause anyone else to pay the price for their risky behaviour.

As a rider to this, it's good that cars now have DLR's. No doubt by reducing the time to look from a quick glance to barely having to move one's eyeballs it should knock a couple of milliseconds of an average journey.
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