Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

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Psamathe
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Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Psamathe »

A couple of times recently I've had some "close shaves" though bad drivers in company vehicles (vans/lorries). And I've subsequently contacted the companies and complained, not identifying the vehicle/time/place so they cannot ID the specific driver. This is deliberate 'cos I do believe that individuals really don't want a cyclist under their wheels but, they are under a lot of pressure from their companies to make more deliveries in same time, increase productivity, etc. so they are under pressure which results in bad driving.

And some companies have communicated with me asking details and then we discuss and I push for a general raising the issue to all their drivers to be aware of vulnerable road users, etc.

2 weeks ago I had an incident with a courier van and after chatting (on the phone) with their transport manager he agreed it was a good idea to raise the issue in a general context at their next Monday drivers team meeting (i.e. raising with all the depot drivers). And he also decided he would contact the two neighbouring depots and get them to do the same as he realised it was important (for their company as well as vulnerable road users).

Today I had two "close shaves" both because drivers failed to adjust for my speed when pulling in after a close overtake. I caught up with the van driver who pointed out what he had just done and got a "disappointing" response and then later a bus driver.

Do people think it worth pursuing such incidents ?

I've previously taken the attitude that to do nothing means the driver will be unaware of his shortcomings and will repeat and repeat until there is a serious incident. But I also feel reserved about getting individuals "in trouble". The two today will mean identifying the vehicles for anything to happen, hence my reservations.

So I was wondering what others thought.

Ian
Flinders
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Flinders »

I've done the same as yourself re some bad driving, and for the same reasons as yourself- i.e., reporting it, asking the company to look at their driver training and give advice to staff, and asking them to ask themselves if they are putting staff under too much time pressure, but not identifying a specific individual. But if you spoke to the individual and got a response which suggests the person concerned may do whatever it was again, and that it wasn't just a genuine mistake made under pressure, I'd report them specifically to their employer. They need to be stopped.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Cunobelin »

I am afraid that I disagree, a driver chooses to make a dangerous manoeuvre of their own accord.


I always complain and detail the driver and vehicle details.

What is funny is that they always lie about what has happened.

At this point send in the video and ask why the company is lying about events

For example, driver puled a left hook and clipped my front wheel. Then explained that i should "Go Away" as I had been holding him up and it was therefore my fault.

Complained and was told that it was definitively my fault as I had undertaken their driver at the junction and I was lucky they were not pursuing damages against me for the scratch on their van.


Then produced the video that showed the driver pulling out into the outside lane, crossing both the inside lane and the cycle path....... e no longer works for the company and the grovelling apology from the company was a miraculous volte face
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Graham
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Graham »

I often wonder if the offending driver is ever REALLY fired.
It must be so tempting for the company person to use such a statement as a fob-off to placate the complainant.

The usual response in any organisation is for the insiders to close ranks and ignore or fob-off the outside threat.

How will we ever know if they are REALLY fired ??
fluffybunnyuk
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by fluffybunnyuk »

ummm no. If your numbers up, its up. This is of course taking into account that you've done everything to protect yourself.

I have a 2 step process for this

1) Take up some kind of religious or superstitious belief. Try crossing your fingers just before that HGV rumbles by...
2) If that doesnt work complain to whatever diety you want to believe in when you get there...
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Cunobelin
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Cunobelin »

Graham wrote:I often wonder if the offending driver is ever REALLY fired.
It must be so tempting for the company person to use such a statement as a fob-off to placate the complainant.

The usual response in any organisation is for the insiders to close ranks and ignore or fob-off the outside threat.

How will we ever know if they are REALLY fired ??


That is why I always follow up with the video

Having to write a letter retracting and apologising for their previous statement is something managers hate as it makes them look inefficient and stupid. They then take this out on the driver who has put them in that position by lying.

... and yes they do get fired.
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mjr
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by mjr »

Yes, I think it is worth reporting incidents. I only report the worst ones to the police, the rest to the company if identifiable, especially if I had a camera running (which is only a minority of rides these days). I usually identify the driver and vehicle if possible because you never know if they'll just change job if the company gets stricter about bad driving. The company may be pressuring the drivers with unrealistic timetables, but even then the driver is still making the immediate decision that the timetable is more important than the safety of other road users.

Sometimes I'm fairly sure it's sheer negligence from drivers working for firms that I don't believe are routinely pressuring their drivers, like the van of a local family-owned seller of safety signs and equipment, which overtook me on an on-road bit of NCN11 on a blind bend, then pulled in and slammed its brakes on to make a right turn. I was glad I'd started applying the brakes during the overtake else I would have been splatted into the safety slogans on its back door :-(

Or the bus driver reading from a book. Which reminds me to chase up https://mobile.twitter.com/Norfolkgreen ... 0843848704
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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AlanD
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by AlanD »

Hello all,
I have been thinking about this incident ever since I saw it and I'd like to share my thoughts on the matter.
We all would like to think that everyone will behave in a civilized and law-abiding manner. Sadly this is often not the case and when the moment happens upon us, we can find ourselves in trouble.
It may also be helpful to start seeing a situation through the filter of a different mindset. i.e. There are those who will see all cyclists as some sort of vermin and are to be treated accordingly. Also, the person who is no respecter of rules has a wider selection of options at their disposal; meaning that person almost certainly will cross over that line (standards of behaviour, rules etc) which hopefully none of us would cross over, thereby escalating a situation out of our control.
Coming back to this situation, something similar happened to me a number of years ago. My assailant was the size of a rugby player and his kick sent me sprawling. We can always learn to keep cool and not do anything to provoke, or just try to avoid a confrontation; but given the mindset of some motorists, if someone is determined to 'teach us a lesson' then I don't think anything we do will avoid the confrontation.
So can we do anything to maintain some control and give us a better chance of walking away with a better result?
Firstly, I'm thinking of Transactional Analysis here - Parent - Adult - Child. Also the tendency to make a judgement on the other persons physical appearance e.g. He's bigger than me = don't make trouble. Or he's a puny weed = show him who's boss.
So what I'm thinking is this. Don't behave frightened or submissive, even if you are. Stand tall, speak strongly, not apologetically. Look him in the eyes.
As for positioning, don't ride right up to where this person is blocking your path. So long as you are straddling your bike, you are at a disadvantage. Stop a distance back, to give yourself time to get off the bike and put it out of the way; then stand there. Choose your spot and let him come to you.
I may not be built like a rugby player, but I did do Ki-Akido some years back and can still remember most of the moves; think I can hold someone in an arm lock if I need to.
Bullies are cowards! If someone hopes to teach you a lesson and make sport with your blood on their fists; then find themselves facing someone ready to give an account for themselves.... well that might just make them think twice.
On my way to work once, some aggressive driver shot past me, screeched into the kerb ahead and stood in the road to block me. I slowed & stopped in the primary position about 50ft from him. Stood square in the road (good thing the driver behind could see what was going on) Then in a moment of inspired, and probably insane, courage I used the beckoning gesture that Morpheus used in 'The Matrix'. Never seen anyone get in their car and drive off so quickly before :lol: The driver behind asked if I was OK and I thanked him.
What I'm saying is that as in Transactional Analysis, if you behave as the victim, there's a strong chance the other person will behave as the bully.

Go safely out there, Alan
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Graham
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Graham »

Cunobelin wrote:Having to write a letter retracting and apologising for their previous statement is something managers hate as it makes them look inefficient and stupid. They then take this out on the driver who has put them in that position by lying.

... and yes they do get fired.

Yes, I can see that your procedure is likely to get a better result. Thanks for informing us, so that we may copy it.

Sorry to be a nuisance, but how do we know that a dangerous driver has been fired ??
( Just thinking about the [protracted] disciplinary procedures of many organisations and beyond that the legal framework of "employees rights". )
In addition I have suspicions that within the transportation industry, the operatives might just be a bit biased against punishing one of their own.
Flinders
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Flinders »

If the driving is careless, like bad judgement of space to allow, or the sort of driving you get when a driver just doesn't understand that a cyclist may be going faster than 6mph, it can be more effective if the company deals with it via training for all their drivers. That way, all the drivers get educated/reminded, and nobody is put on the defensive (which can just entrench their behaviour).

If the driving is a direct and aggressive act, then the driver needs to be named and dealt with through the disciplinary procedures.

The last time I reported bad driving, what the driver was doing was illegal (speeding, overtaking over solid lines, tailgating). But as I'd say between 10 and 20% of drivers do that sort of thing every day, I felt the best thing to do was to report it to the company and suggest that
a) bad driving gives a company a bad name ( I won't use a supplier for anything if I see their staff driving like this)
b) their insurer might not be happy to hear about it.
c) one day they might be involved in a court case, possibly involving a death, and how were they going to prove they had taken reasonable steps to ensure their drivers were safe?
d) it would be a good idea to do some staff driver training, and some monitoring of their drivers.
rfryer
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by rfryer »

Alan D wrote:Then in a moment of inspired, and probably insane, courage I used the beckoning gesture that Morpheus used in 'The Matrix'. Never seen anyone get in their car and drive off so quickly before :lol:

What a great image! If he had called your bluff, would you have gone for the bullet-time blocks, the overhead somersault, or producing an arsenal from beneath your lycra trenchcoat?
Psamathe
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Psamathe »

Well, in the two instances that made me ask the question, where I would have had to identify specific drivers I ended up doing nothing.

And since this thread has progressed and I have thought more about it, I think I was wrong and should have raised complaints.

I suppose my internal conflict comes as I don't want to be responsible for somebody losing their job (and assuming that is what really happens, make it difficult to find another job in the same industry given what their letter of reference would have to say). But probably more importantly I don't want my failure to act/complain to result in a vulnerable road user under the wheels of a vehicle when I could have done something (e.g. complaints meaning driver gets formal warning, told "if it happens again", etc. - so at least they might start taking a bit more care).

As Graham pointed out above, I guess in practice a single incident being reported against a specific driver with no "history" would not get that driver fired (particularly based on a complaint without documentary proof); they would need some history of similar reports and probably a number of formal warnings on the HR record. So I'm thinking complaining would maybe get the driver a formal warning which would make him/her feel "at risk" and would mean he would be taking more care in future. And if he/she has a history of such poor driving to the point where my complaint means they get fired then (sounds nasty) but maybe they are in the wrong line of work.

Many of the close passes I've been experiencing recently are because the driver has failed to take into account that my bike was moving. e.g. when I'm riding at 20mph in a 30 limit a bus takes a lot longer to pass than passing a stationary object. And if drivers appreciated that I think I'd be seeing a lot fewer nasty passes.

And when I do complain I am thinking more about avoiding similar occurrences in the future not punishment for a mistake past.

So, next time I probably will be complaining.

But then I do also compliment. Earlier in the year a builders delivery lorry gave me good clearance, loads of room (which of course it should have - but it struck me when it happened as particularly good) and I did contact the company, complimenting them and identifying the driver (and ordering from them), and it did get noted and it did get back to the driver (as he then happened to deliver my order and thanked me for the "good report").

Ian
Vorpal
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Vorpal »

Graham wrote:Sorry to be a nuisance, but how do we know that a dangerous driver has been fired ??
( Just thinking about the [protracted] disciplinary procedures of many organisations and beyond that the legal framework of "employees rights". )
In addition I have suspicions that within the transportation industry, the operatives might just be a bit biased against punishing one of their own.

I doubt that very many companies would provide evidence that they have actually fired someone. And in fact, I'm not sure that I would take that as satisfactory action, in any case. there is nothing to prevent their other employees from behaving badly on the roads.

I would *far* prefer to hear that a company has taken steps to minimise danger to other roads users. They can do this by requiring them to undergo annual driver retraining that includes cyclist awareness, speed awareness, and advanced driving techniques. The can set clear policy in the company about acceptable treatment of other roads users, and ask their drivers to avoid intimidating vulnerable users. They can install cameras in their vehicles. Not only will such actions improve their insurance rates, tehy may very well serve to protect the company in case of an incident.

That said, most people have things in their contracts that say if they do something illegal or endanger others (violate an HSE policy) whilst working they can be 'dismissed with cause' which precludes any notice period, or other contractual obligations.

It's not so hard to just fire someone, anyway, especially if the company is willing to pay them for the notice period. And a driver who is willing to endanger others on the road may well have other problems, too. If I were to hear that someone was fired after I made a complaint, I would assume that the company had been looking for an excuse to fire him/her, anyway. I would never accept guilt that someone lost a job because of my complaint.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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Revolution
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Re: Action on Dangerous Drivers - Worth the Effort

Post by Revolution »

If the vehicle has livery and so can be identified I do not hesitate to contact the company. I am not concerned for the driver's employment only that they drive correctly. I've pasted a correspondence I had recently with a local firm -
me:- yesterday evening 7:15 your van passed me at speed and
> dangerously close - (Brockley Combe) Can I ask that your driver takes a
> look at the following site :
> https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-t ... 162-to-169
> before they kill someone

them:- Thank-you for finding the time to advise of a potential problem. Having
viewed the recordings of yesterday I am able to tell you the maximum
recorded speed of the vehicle never exceeded 42 mph. Also at no time was the
vehicle within 1 metre of any obstacle.
Therefore the conclusion is the vehicle was not speeding, and certainly not
dangerously close to any obstruction

me:- "give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car." - Highway code rule 163
this is not what happened yesterday - at 40mph overtaking a cycle a van needs to pull out enough to make it safe to overtake. All I'm asking is that you have a word with the driver.

them:- I will pass on your comments, again thank-you for the time taken to record this information
Although their initial response is to deny that the incident took place, I do think that the complaint is worth making - if they start getting more of them regarding one driver I'm sure they will look at the viability of keeping that person behind the wheel.
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