Another A38 Accident

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BeeKeeper
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Another A38 Accident

Post by BeeKeeper »

A38 closed at Lee Mill, near Plymouth. Reports of cyclist hit by a lorry. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-29076710#
The lorry driver has been arrested according to this report but this probably doesn't mean much: http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/U ... story.html
Very sad. Just a couple of miles from where I live. Locals will know there is a cycle path running along this stretch but it is slow compared to the main road.
Last edited by BeeKeeper on 5 Sep 2014, 2:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fossala
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by fossala »

Is the A30 and A38 more dangerous than other A roads or do I just notice the stories more as it's close to home?
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Mick F
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by Mick F »

Yes, very sad.

Close to home?
Maybe, but a collision can happen on any road.
Out this morning, I had to divert from my planned ride because of a serious accident up near Brentor on the Chillaton road. The police had closed three roads coz the accident had happened at a cross roads.

No idea what was involved, but it must have been serious. Again, very sad.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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I don't want to speculate about this incident and wish only the best for the cyclist who sounds in a bad way but the A38 is a busy dual carriage way with quite a few slip roads on and off along this stretch. There is a narrow band of tarmac between the rumble strip and the grass but it is chocker with stones and rubbish. I often see people cycling along this but they must be prone to punctures. You also see a few cycling on the "road side" of the rumble strip with vehicles skimming past them a few inches away it seems. Not my sort of cycling but they are within their rights - but I wouldn't do it ever. The problem are the tailgaters - the first vehicle in a bunch should see the cyclist but the ones behind don't if they are too close to the vehicle in front, especially if it is a truck. I must stress again I am not speculating about this incident but is there an official CTC view on cycling on busy A roads like the A38? Should the CTC actively discourage it or do they say it is every rider's right?
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by Mick F »

PS

Lee Mill I've ridden through many times, but I've always used the back roads. I don't think I've ever ridden on the A38 there always strikes me as too busy and fast.

Often come down from Lee Moor/Wotter to Ivybridge then followed the back roads to Plympton. You can go through south through Smithaleigh or north down Holland Rd into Chaddelwood.
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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BeeKeeper wrote: is there an official CTC view on cycling on busy A roads like the A38? Should the CTC actively discourage it or do they say it is every rider's right?

I suspect they point out that it is every person's right to use the public highway, and should be campaigning for better policing to allow people to go about their daily lives without being threatened by the Mr Hyde which appears when people take control of a lethal weapon...
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by Ben@Forest »

fossala wrote:Is the A30 and A38 more dangerous than other A roads or do I just notice the stories more as it's close to home?


After a quick google according the Road Safety Foundation the most dangerous (in terms of fatalities)is the A537. Neither the A30 nor the A38 make the top ten. Though of course the statistics are for all road users, the most dangerous road for cyclists may be different and I suspect the A30 and A38 are often used by those doing the E2E.
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BeeKeeper
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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[XAP]Bob wrote:
BeeKeeper wrote: is there an official CTC view on cycling on busy A roads like the A38? Should the CTC actively discourage it or do they say it is every rider's right?

I suspect they point out that it is every person's right to use the public highway, and should be campaigning for better policing to allow people to go about their daily lives without being threatened by the Mr Hyde which appears when people take control of a lethal weapon...


I am sure you are right but is it a naïve view? Cyclists are not allowed on motorways and I don't think many complain about that but the difference between the A38 and the M5, especially on the two lane sections is marginal - except motorists don't expect to see cyclists on a motorway I suppose but when the M5 becomes the A38 at Exeter the only real giveaway is the signs change colour.
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by AlaninWales »

BeeKeeper wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
BeeKeeper wrote: is there an official CTC view on cycling on busy A roads like the A38? Should the CTC actively discourage it or do they say it is every rider's right?

I suspect they point out that it is every person's right to use the public highway, and should be campaigning for better policing to allow people to go about their daily lives without being threatened by the Mr Hyde which appears when people take control of a lethal weapon...


I am sure you are right but is it a naïve view? Cyclists are not allowed on motorways and I don't think many complain about that but the difference between the A38 and the M5, especially on the two lane sections is marginal - except motorists don't expect to see cyclists on a motorway I suppose but when the M5 becomes the A38 at Exeter the only real giveaway is the signs change colour.

Or is it a naive view to think that a statement by a leading cycling organisation that "cycling on busy A roads" is something to "actively discourage", would not be leapt on by victim blaming lawyers, courts and insurance companies to reduce punishment of those who drive into the or compensation to victims below its already abysmally low point?
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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BeeKeeper wrote:I must stress again I am not speculating about this incident but is there an official CTC view on cycling on busy A roads like the A38? Should the CTC actively discourage it or do they say it is every rider's right?

I think CTC shouldn't actively discourage it because these A roads mostly follow routes where people want to travel, so that would be effectively discouraging cycling. It seems fair to note that it is every rider's right, although not to encourage people to ride these unfun roads more than they must.

Rather than guessing their position, why not look at the CTC website? I didn't find a concise current official view, but http://www.space4cycling.org.uk calls for decent protected space alongside major roads and there are many statements like:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/government-roads-strategy-promises-to-cycleproof-major-roads wrote:Too often large roads are barriers to local journeys by bike, while those attempting to use them are 20 times more at risk of being killed than on minor urban roads.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/roger-geffen/boris-must-stop-ducking-responsibility-for-action-to-save-lives wrote:start by tackling the hostile environment on our major roads and junctions, and addressing the serious threat posed by lorries. These solutions would benefit pedestrians' safety as well as that of cyclists.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/2012-06-27/minister-opens-new-cycle-path-alongside-a27-in-east-sussex wrote:Cycle tracks are most needed alongside rural major roads such as the A27, but route continuity is vital if cyclists are to be able to use it without having to return to the road. However, at £1m a mile, the funding that exists for cycling now is a long way from the level required to ensure that these sorts of facilities can be implemented on all the major roads that require them.

On this aspect, I think I'm fully in agreement with what seems to be the CTC position.
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by Erudin »

BeeKeeper wrote:..There is a narrow band of tarmac between the rumble strip and the grass but it is chocker with stones and rubbish. I often see people cycling along this but they must be prone to punctures. You also see a few cycling on the "road side" of the rumble strip with vehicles skimming past them a few inches away it seems. Not my sort of cycling but they are within their rights - but I wouldn't do it ever....


I think cycling to the extreme left or on the "wrong" side of the white lines is very dangerous. It makes it harder for drivers to see you especially round bends and it encourages them not to bother to slow or cross the centre line to give a safe space.

It seems counter-intuitive but if vehicles are passing me too close I move further out in the lane, I try not to ride left of where vehicles leftmost tyres track.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/julie-rand/why-wont-cyclists-take-lane
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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Erudin wrote:
BeeKeeper wrote:..There is a narrow band of tarmac between the rumble strip and the grass but it is chocker with stones and rubbish. I often see people cycling along this but they must be prone to punctures. You also see a few cycling on the "road side" of the rumble strip with vehicles skimming past them a few inches away it seems. Not my sort of cycling but they are within their rights - but I wouldn't do it ever....


I think cycling to the extreme left or on the "wrong" side of the white lines is very dangerous. It makes it harder for drivers to see you especially round bends and it encourages them not to bother to slow or cross the centre line to give a safe space.

It seems counter-intuitive but if vehicles are passing me too close I move further out in the lane, I try not to ride left of where vehicles leftmost tyres track.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/julie-rand/why-wont-cyclists-take-lane


I am well aware of the concept of staying out in a lane I do it frequently on the narrow lanes around here - very dangerous to hug the inside of a left hand bend for example so taking primary where necessary is the right thing to do but I fear there are exceptions. Are we suggesting as a cyclist you try riding in the primary position on the inside lane of a two lane highway like the A38? I wonder how long the police would let you do it for? Secondary would be even worse I think especially given the problem with tailgaters effectively driving blind. Which is my point really, I fully agree with the first and third quote from the CTC website mjr lists (thanks :D ) but the middle quote is good for say cities but on fast dual carriageways? Hence my suggestion the CTC view is naïve. Their stance the rider has the right to ride on these roads and it is therefore the other road users responsibility to avoid hitting them doesn't work on these roads I think just as it isn't even attempted on motorways - which the A38 is in all but name along this stretch. I'm not making excuses for bad driving but just accepting reality.

There is a cycleway along part of the A38 on this stretch, running parallel for a short section from Ivybridge then it shoots off into Lee Mill village and you have a long hill up through the village then over a high bridge over the A38 and then back down to road level so to speak for another stretch parallel with the main road before it climbs back over another bridge before eventually depositing you on the outskirts of Plympton where there are a few cycle paths but if you are heading for Plymouth you just have to mix it with the traffic on the urban roads, there being no cycle path any more parallel with the A38. Decent cycle paths are what we need but it will be costly and there is always the problem of how to design them at the numerous slip roads in a way which doesn't slow the riders down so much cyclists just get back onto the main roads in order to make best speed.

I don't have an answer by the way to any of this. Just saddened by todays news and wondering how to stop It happening again - other than by saying it just needs a magical transformation of drivers - which isn't going to happen.
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by DevonDamo »

Couldn't agree with you more BeeKeeper.

If you're on a road travelling at, say, 50mph slower than other vehicles, you're in grave danger. At least if you're off the main track, you've got a better chance that the lorry driver who's head-down changing CDs might whizz past you rather than through you. If you DO manage to slow the traffic down to your speed, then there's a good chance of accidents in the chaos behind you, plus you'll make us that unpopular that Jeremy Clarkson could be commissioned to rewrite the highway code.

(NB: this is a general comment about riding on high speed roads. I'm not pretending to know anything about what happened in this particular accident.)
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Re: Another A38 Accident

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Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Another A38 Accident

Post by dodger »

I had to drive up and back the A30 and A38 in Cornwall twice today - around 250 miles in a large van and saw probably 20ish cyclists trying to cope and being blown around a bit by lorries. Some of them had panniers and some looked like day riders. None looked happy to be there on a very busy friday. The safest parts for them were the single carriageway parts of the A30, where traffic was already moving slowly, but the single lane A38 in the Glynn Valley is particular nasty.

The dualled bits, with two lanes of fast traffic seemed a cyclist's nightmare for me and I wondered then why these roads weren't built to accommodate a reasonable cycle lane. Easy enough by just trimming back part of the central reservation and road edges. Of course, that would be only sensible if such a lane was kept clear of the debris that currently collects on the narrow bit on the inside of the white line.
The A30 and A38 are not the places to be, particularly in summer and rush hours. I avoid them, except for a few short stretches where I have no choice.

As for stand-alone cycle ways; the ones with a good level surface are in a small minority. Why is it that so many tarmaced ones feel like they've been laid by a very junior apprentice??
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