Carrying a defibrillator

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.

Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby gaz » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:48 pm

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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby profpointy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:26 pm

gaz wrote:I hope the rider makes a full and swift recovery.

Has anyone completed an incident report form?

If I were on a club run I'd like to think the leader may have a First Aid kit, I don't think I'd go so far as to say I'd expect them to have one or be trained to use it. As to carrying a defibrillator...


I'm always a bit sceptical on "carrying a.first aid kit". If it's bad enough that you can't do without or improvise -will anything realistically feasible for a first aid kit help? eg defibrillator - spinal splint, leg splint, real drugs like morphine etc. If a sticky plaster or even triangular bandage is gonna help, I suggest you can do without. And if cycling in a group (give there'a "leader" who's expected to have a first aid kit) can't someone cycle off to the nearest house assuming no mobile phone coverage. Knowing a bit of first aid -fair enough - and if I'm hillwalking I tend to carry rather more - but things like electrical tape, folding "sam splint" to cover fractures, and anyway have walking sticks & bivi bag. But just for a bike ride, no
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby [XAP]Bob » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:28 pm

Psamathe wrote:On the CPR and doing it properly; it's many years since I was taught (on several courses) and I've never had to do it for real, but often when you see it being done on TV it's feeble and misleading. From my memory, it's meant to be done fairly hard (one course mentioned you might break a rib on your patient but better that and they live). And of course you can't do it on a person who does not need it. So when people keep seeing dainty little gentle presses (the "patient" would probably not even be aware of), I wonder if this is mis-directing the general public.

That said, it was years ago I was taught so maybe things have changed or my memory worsened (and I'm wrong).

Ian

Apparently it's pretty much inevitable that a rib will break - and that you will feel it.

Only time my instructor had *not* broken a rib was when the patient was concious (he'd been sent into vfib by a mains shock)
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Colin_P » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:58 pm

I'm biased on this being one of the lucky 5% to have survived a Sudden Cardiac Arrest (SCA).

I think the more AED's (Automatic External Defibrillators) available the better. As for taking one along on a ride, that is a tricky one. As for susceptibility to having an SCA, they are rare but anyone can suffer and at any time. Ironically a lot of elite athletes, particularly long distance athletes, have an increased risk of heart arrhythmias which can then rapidly degrade to an SCA. The S in SCA being key, when these happen there is often little or no warning, often the sufferer is as fit as a fiddle with no previous signs or history.

The use and availability of AED's is in its infancy here in the UK but hopefully they will become more widespread and cheaper, smaller and lighter in years to come.

Me personally, I am in lucky 5% and now have an ICD (Implanted Cardioverter Defibrillator) listening and looking out for me. In the year I've had it, it has saved my life three times. I am 43 years old.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby beardy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 pm

It isnt just the initial purchase price of the AED units. They need servicing and spare or replacement batteries, I suspect they may be over a hundred pounds per year for its upkeep.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:39 pm

beardy wrote:It isnt just the initial purchase price of the AED units. They need servicing and spare or replacement batteries, I suspect they may be over a hundred pounds per year for its upkeep.


You can buy one with lithium batteries that last 5 years. After that time it must me returned for refurbishment @ £350 + VAT or you can get one with a 3.5 year battery life tha is user replaceable that cost £125 + VAT.

IF I were serious about buying one, I'd probably plump for the 5 year one and bet on unit prices falling.

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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Mark1978 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:43 pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Holywood CPR is great though - Take a 3 week decayed corpse, 3 chest compressions and they'll spit out a mouthful of seawater (despite this being in the middle of the desert) and run a marathon...


I did read that the success rate for CPR so something like 5% - not sure how that's defined.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Neilo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:10 pm

timdownieuk wrote:Why either/or? If you're on your own clearly you go for CPR. The best way however to restore circulation after cardiac arrest is to restore rhythm, something a defibrillator does much better.


If you are on your own you get help first, 999, the help will bring the defib. then carry out CPR, otherwise you will be doing CPR until the cows come home.

I think a lot of people don't realise that if someone has a cardiac arrest, they will be lucky if they survive. Including the woman that did it on my Father when he died. She was most upset, when I spoke to her at his funeral, that she didn't save him. I tried to explain to her that there was a slim chance that it would help, and I thanked her for trying.Don't get me wrong 5% is better than 0. and it is worth doing something. people don't survive a cardiac arrest when there in a heart ward in hospital, where they have all the kit, so in the street, you are on the back foot from the start.
If you are far away from a defib, out in the stcks, then in my experience then the odd are even slimmer. I'm a member of a mountain rescue team and all the cardiac arrests I have attended in remote places, or have known about, have been fatal.

Neil
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Postboxer » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:23 pm

I did notice there was one at the top of Blackpool Tower, which you take a lift to get to, although there are a few flights of optional stairs if you want to go a bit higher up.
If I was going to put one anywhere, I think I'd want one at the top of Warwick Castle, along with a bench up there too. There's a tall tower and it's one way narrow staircases up and down, with nowhere to sit if you make it to the top. If anyone is struggling on the way up, the queue of people behind them prevents them from going anywhere other than up.
It's also quite tricky to get a stretcher up and down there.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Castle+co ... 0197214088
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby eileithyia » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:18 am

Reading the responses, was thinking the same as Neilo.... GET HELP FIRST...... you must have help on it's way before you begin any CPR you cannot continue CPR forever, it is extremely tiring...... and you should not stop until the help arrives.. if someone arrives who asks if they can help, get them to do a spell of CPR (if they can) to give you a rest.

Always remember, if you need to give CPR the person is effectively dead, as said elsewhere; what more harm can you do? You can't! But you MIGHT affect the outcome.

The Hollywood scenario of CPR bringing back the dead in dramatic fashion skews our belief on the effectiveness of CPR.

If you should carry anything it should be low dose Aspirin, if someone collapses with chest pains then an Aspirin can be effective. Remember an AED will only be effective once the heart has already stopped... if there is a pulse then AED and CPR is NOT appropriate.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:56 am

eileithyia wrote:Reading the responses, was thinking the same as Neilo.... GET HELP FIRST...... you must have help on it's way before you begin any CPR you cannot continue CPR forever, it is extremely tiring...... and you should not stop until the help arrives.. if someone arrives who asks if they can help, get them to do a spell of CPR (if they can) to give you a rest.

Always remember, if you need to give CPR the person is effectively dead, as said elsewhere; what more harm can you do? You can't! But you MIGHT affect the outcome.

The Hollywood scenario of CPR bringing back the dead in dramatic fashion skews our belief on the effectiveness of CPR.

If you should carry anything it should be low dose Aspirin, if someone collapses with chest pains then an Aspirin can be effective. Remember an AED will only be effective once the heart has already stopped... if there is a pulse then AED and CPR is NOT appropriate.


If you have someone with classics symptoms of a heart attack (chest pain, pallor, clammy skin etc) having an AED connected BEFORE they arrest is far more likely to be successful than waiting for them to arrest first. If they do arrest, vital seconds/minutes are saved.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby MiniCoop » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:18 am

Having recently done a first aid and defib course, the importance of early defibrillation in survival rates is significant. That being said, like others have mentioned the chances of someone surviving after their heart has stopped is very slim. I don't think carrying a defib when riding is practical, but I do think it's important to increase the number available in towns and cities as well as more remote areas and I also think CPR should be taught in schools.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:47 pm

MiniCoop wrote:Having recently done a first aid and defib course, the importance of early defibrillation in survival rates is significant. That being said, like others have mentioned the chances of someone surviving after their heart has stopped is very slim. I don't think carrying a defib when riding is practical, but I do think it's important to increase the number available in towns and cities as well as more remote areas and I also think CPR should be taught in schools.


I think folk are being a bit contradictory. I thing we'd all agree that early defibrillation is important and that success of CPR out in the sticks is very low. If there's *one* occasion when a portable defib would be really useful it when you have a group of , ahem, athletes exercising together in a moving group.

As for being impractical, depends on your definition. 2kg isn't that much. Unaffordable for many probably (at the moment) but definitely doable.

Tim
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby cotswolds » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:30 pm

I was told step 1 in CPR was always to ensure the safety of the patient and the first aider(s). For cycling, it's quite likely that the patient will be collapsed in the road, so start by considering the risk of being hit by a car, and what you can do about it. It's easy to overlook the obvious when faced with an unexpected situation.

Then, 2: call 999.
3: start CPR.
4: send someone to look for an AED.

My local tiny village shop has an AED, so they may be more available in rural areas than you might think. (But the shop's only open a few hours a day, so it's not that available.)

I tried looking for a map of AED locations and found http://www.aedlocator.org/AEDLocations.php and http://www.defibfinder.co.uk/ but they both look very incomplete to me.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby thirdcrank » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:35 pm

See this:-

viewtopic.php?p=816808#p816808

For anybody who doesn't bother with links, it's an ambulance person on a bike.

The CTC seems to have been a bit slow in making such a person a requirement for every local members group ride. (Just to make it clear, this is an attempt at irony.)
Gang warily.
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