Can I have a moan?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
charlie the cat
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Can I have a moan?

Post by charlie the cat »

I don't get nearly enough time to get out in the countryside as I would like but was left feeling quite miffed today.

If anyone knows Trimpley reservoir near Bewdley on the river Severn you may be able to cast some light (or any countryside dwellers). I got a little lost as my bloody google map/map my ride wouldn't show up on my mobile so thought I would follow the river for a bit and a road or path would surely present itself.

Anyway, it didn't. Carried my bike more than pushed (never mind rode) through dense overgrown riverside path. I wearily after about an hour's worth of struggle came out on a dirt track obviously used by cars so thought at least I was nearly clear. The reservoir at Trimpley then came into view and made all of life's petty worries disappear. Had dinner watching the boats and fishermen do their thing then set off for the gate ahead - could see cars parked at the opposite end of the reservoir, and cars mean road, right?

No. I approached the large wooden gate and groaned when I saw the 'private' sign attached. 'What!' I thought, 'you can walk around half of the reservoir and carry on down the riverside path but cannot circulate the entire watered area?'. There is no special barrier, just a farmer's field type of gate, you know, the wooden traditional sort that Ronnie Barker would lean on for a skit while sucking a piece of grass.

I was pushing my bike the whole time and being a well spoken middle aged man not dressed in lycra, what is the problem? Well, the fishermen saw me approach the gate and leapt into action. 'You can't go through here, it's private', they cried, almost in unison.

Standing my ground and with a calm, detemined air I simply stated 'Why?'. 'Why what?', one of them said. 'Why is it private?'

'Because, err, we don't want people crossing here'!! Mr fishing person said, quite defensively.

'Why not, when I can go half way around... why can't I access the road up there?' said I, looking at the promised land of smoothish tarmac not a few hundred yards away. Some mumbling about a code on the far gate ensued which is a secret apparantly.

Anyway, they were not going to budge, the anarchy that would result from a tired, lost cyclist walking his bike slowly over some grass exactly like the grass on the general public side would surely cause Putin nightmares.

They pointed me the way I had came and said there is a path throught the forest I must have missed (I didn't, it was just incredibly steep and long, and only a mountain goat could have scaled it).

When I finally got home my computer based cyclo doodads informed me that my (badly) planned 20 mile tootle had been a 36 mile journey through Hades itself and over 3200 calories had been sacrificed to the cause! Being barley 11 stone in weight twas a struggle to make it back - though my temper could have gone a hundred miles further!

What gets to me is that if it was a group of yobs they would not have looked twice...


Feel better for that, thanks for listening.

Have other countryside rants, maybe another time.
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661-Pete
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by 661-Pete »

Can't help you on Trimpley resv, don't know that area sorry - but restrictions on walking or cycling around reservoirs are commonplace. Take our local water supply, Ardingly Reservoir in Sussex. As the map shows (but not everyone carries a map), you can walk* around the east side, along the causeway across the northern arm, then up the east side of the northwestern arm. But not down any part of the western side: that's all private land, and unarguably fenced and gated off to prevent any access. We've sometimes encountered dismayed ramblers at the northwest end, not familiar with the area, asking "why can't we walk all the way round?" Not being the landowners :roll: :lol: , we can only explain that there's no option other than to go back the way they came (or take a detour into Balcombe village then go down the road).

So you're not alone in your feeling miffed!

*part of the path is only footpath, not bridleway, but I've never seen a cyclist challenged for going along it. We only walk there because we haven't got MTBs. But you can bank on being challenged if you try the west side, whether on bike or on foot.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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bovlomov
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by bovlomov »

Jerome K. Jerome knew the problem.

Three Men in a Boat, Chapter VIII ...Selfish boorishness of river-side landowner.—“Notice” boards....
Where it is really the owners that are to blame, they ought to be shown up. The selfishness of the riparian proprietor grows with every year. If these men had their way they would close the river Thames altogether. They actually do this along the minor tributary streams and in the backwaters. They drive posts into the bed of the stream, and draw chains across from bank to bank, and nail huge notice-boards on every tree. The sight of those notice-boards rouses every evil instinct in my nature. I feel I want to tear each one down, and hammer it over the head of the man who put it up, until I have killed him, and then I would bury him, and put the board up over the grave as a tombstone.

I mentioned these feelings of mine to Harris, and he said he had them worse than that. He said he not only felt he wanted to kill the man who caused the board to be put up, but that he should like to slaughter the whole of his family and all his friends and relations, and then burn down his house. This seemed to me to be going too far, and I said so to Harris; but he answered:

“Not a bit of it. Serve ’em all jolly well right, and I’d go and sing comic songs on the ruins.”

I was vexed to hear Harris go on in this blood-thirsty strain. We never ought to allow our instincts of justice to degenerate into mere vindictiveness. It was a long while before I could get Harris to take a more Christian view of the subject, but I succeeded at last, and he promised me that he would spare the friends and relations at all events, and would not sing comic songs on the ruins.


On the subject of private land, the whole chapter is worth reading. For numberless other reasons the whole book is worth reading.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/308-h.htm
irc
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by irc »

In Scotland owning the land does not give anyone the power to ban reasonable access. The sky hasn't fallen in.
kwackers
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by kwackers »

Seriously though - what can they do?

I had something similar where I'd run along a path I'd assumed was public only to have some 'Burberry lout' accost me. I was probably 50m from the road (whence he'd came) and several hundred meters from where I'd joined. I got all the usual "you're trespassing, you'll have to go back" etc etc.

After a slightly heated discussion I just went around him and told him to 'sue me', he made some remark about calling the police and that was that...

My very limited understanding is that there's not really much you can do regarding trespass particularly if there's no damage and there are no other costs involved.
I think he was also wrong, in being asked to leave I was entitled to leave by the shortest path as opposed to his (rather daft) idea that I spend more time trespassing by going back the way I'd come! I guess in a court that would appear a bit churlish...
(I'm not even sure the police can do much with regards the offence of trespassing other than to assist him getting you to leave - and if you've already left then what?)

As I said I have a very limited understanding, I'm sure someone on here can elaborate...
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661-Pete
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by 661-Pete »

"TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED*" is, in England, normally merely a frightener; trespass itself is not a criminal offence except on railways, MOD prohibited places, and football pitches during a match (correct me if there are any others). There is something called 'aggravated trespass' which involves doing something like obstructing a lawful activity on that land (e.g. lying in front of a bulldozer). I think it's used against travellers even if they don't actually 'obstruct' anyone. Anyway your taking a bike onto private land is not in itself an offence, provided you didn't do any damage or obstruct the anglers.

*Occasionally I've seen a sign worded "PERSECUTED". Sign of the times?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Mark1978
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by Mark1978 »

charlie the cat wrote:They pointed me the way I had came and said there is a path throught the forest I must have missed (I didn't, it was just incredibly steep and long, and only a mountain goat could have scaled it).


As I understand it, if trespassing the landowner can invite you to leave by the nearest route, and not the route of their choosing.

I had cycled along a route I thought was public access between a public road and a path which is part of the National Cycle Network - I was about 5 metres from getting to the path when I was confronted with a locked gate and a miffed owner. "Did you realise this is a private drive?" , "No I didn't, there's no signs to say that". He let me through the gate as that was the quickest way off his property.
Last edited by Mark1978 on 1 Sep 2014, 10:20am, edited 1 time in total.
Tonyf33
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by Tonyf33 »

661-Pete wrote:"TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED*" is, in England, normally merely a frightener; trespass itself is not a criminal offence except on railways, MOD prohibited places, and football pitches during a match (correct me if there are any others). There is something called 'aggravated trespass' which involves doing something like obstructing a lawful activity on that land (e.g. lying in front of a bulldozer). I think it's used against travellers even if they don't actually 'obstruct' anyone. Anyway your taking a bike onto private land is not in itself an offence, provided you didn't do any damage or obstruct the anglers.

*Occasionally I've seen a sign worded "PERSECUTED". Sign of the times?

We wre having this discussion on the rugby league forums after a few Widnes fans got a bit over excited at losing in the semi final of the cup at Leigh. Loads were saying arrest them, get them done..99% of them were just waving their shirts/scarves and prancing like the idiots they were but basically not doing anything untoward (though the Castleford Mascot lost his 'head' and got tackled :lol: ) the law is pretty strict in defining what is a criminal offence for sporting occasions when fans get onto the playing area.
The football offenses Act 1991(As amended) specifically says that criminal offence is committed when anyone other than those meant to be run onto the field at a ratified Football Association match.
Obviously if one is causing a public disorder offence then that's different but standing there waving your shirt in a daft but unoffensive way to my mind isn't public disorder (& no-one got injured, no punches were thrown and just a few chants exchanged)

With regard to trespass etc, so long as you aren't damaging anything then the landowner would be extremely hard pushed to get anything done about it especially as you wouldn't be giving your name and to hold you would be false imprisonment
kwackers
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by kwackers »

I remember a slightly amusing incident a year or so ago where someone parked their car on another persons drive near an airport and went on their holidays.
The not unreasonably miffed home owner phoned the police but it turned out there was nothing they could do, not only that but they couldn't easily remove the car without being liable for any costs and/or mishaps. They also couldn't clamp it or charge for the parking!
I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall when the owners turned up to collect it...

The moral of the story is there's lots of free parking around, you just need a bit of the old 'bare face' to take advantage... :lol:
Bicycler
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by Bicycler »

I'm as big a fan of increased access rights as you could ever meet and I think it would be great to have Scottish or Scandinavian access laws, but as it stands I get distinctly tired of "they can't touch you for it so it's okay" line of reasoning. When there is a big unambiguous sign (or a big unambiguous landowner :lol: ) I don't see how it could be deemed right to proceed. Civil law is still law, civil wrongs are still wrong and I would like to hope that most people weren't kept from wrongdoing only by the risk of punishment.

I've heard the "they must ask you to leave by the nearest route" tale before but I'm not sure whether or not it is an urban (in fact rural) myth. When I volunteered for a ramblers group a standard question on the forms for claiming a new footpath enquired whether path users had ever been "turned back". The "turning back" was good evidence of a landowner not wishing to dedicate a footpath. IME most landowners are tolerant of a simple mistake or accommodating of those asking permission. They are probably less tolerant of people taking the mickey.
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mjr
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by mjr »

661-Pete wrote:"TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED*" is, in England, normally merely a frightener; [...] *Occasionally I've seen a sign worded "PERSECUTED". Sign of the times?

You're lucky. There's a sign two villages east of me that says something like "TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT. SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" and I'm led to believe that it's a pretty accurate reflection of the occupier's attitude - permissive paths and rights of way circle that land but none cross it. I think it might be shown in http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3678979 but I didn't find a way to zoom that enough to read it. I'll try to remember to take a photo next time I pass but the road from here to there is gravel and there's better alternatives, so I don't often go that way.

Definitely a frightener, but are signs threatening to shoot people even legal? ;-)
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661-Pete
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by 661-Pete »

mjr wrote:
661-Pete wrote:"TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED*" is, in England, normally merely a frightener; [...] *Occasionally I've seen a sign worded "PERSECUTED". Sign of the times?

You're lucky. There's a sign two villages east of me that says something like "TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT. SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" and I'm led to believe that it's a pretty accurate reflection of the occupier's attitude - permissive paths and rights of way circle that land but none cross it. I think it might be shown in http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3678979 but I didn't find a way to zoom that enough to read it. I'll try to remember to take a photo next time I pass but the road from here to there is gravel and there's better alternatives, so I don't often go that way.

Definitely a frightener, but are signs threatening to shoot people even legal? ;-)

I don't know if there's a sign, but there's definitely a locality in East Sussex where you run that risk, courtesy of one Mr H**gstraten... :evil:
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
TonyR
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by TonyR »

AIUI unless the fishermen were the landowners it was none of their business.
karlt
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by karlt »

mjr wrote:
661-Pete wrote:"TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED*" is, in England, normally merely a frightener; [...] *Occasionally I've seen a sign worded "PERSECUTED". Sign of the times?

You're lucky. There's a sign two villages east of me that says something like "TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT. SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" and I'm led to believe that it's a pretty accurate reflection of the occupier's attitude - permissive paths and rights of way circle that land but none cross it. I think it might be shown in http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3678979 but I didn't find a way to zoom that enough to read it. I'll try to remember to take a photo next time I pass but the road from here to there is gravel and there's better alternatives, so I don't often go that way.

Definitely a frightener, but are signs threatening to shoot people even legal? ;-)


Probably not. Threats to kill generally aren't. However, it's useful inasmuch as it tells you the occupier is a right hateful bleeder best avoided.
Bicycler
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Re: Can I have a moan?

Post by Bicycler »

TonyR wrote:AIUI unless the fishermen were the landowners it was none of their business.

I would say it could arguably be considered good citizenship to challenge an act of trespass (where you know that to be the case). It is accepted that landowners' representatives (employees, tenants, relatives etc.) have the right to turn back trespassers and there is always the possibility that the land in question belonged to the angling club in which case they would be suitably entitled. It is highly likely that they paid for access to the land and objected to anybody being allowed to access it for free. Or they were just busybodies but there's no crime in that...

but are signs threatening to shoot people even legal? ;-)

No. But that particular sign could be explained as (poor) humour.
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