10 year ban for killing cyclist

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james01
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10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by james01 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-28968229

At least this seems to be sending a sterner message to drivers than we've seen in some previous cases. A tragic waste of a life. The sooner the mobile phone menace is sorted out the better.
TonyR
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by TonyR »

One step forward with this (pity the driver the other day didn't get the same instead of community service).

But then one step back again with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-28972176
thirdcrank
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by thirdcrank »

TonyR wrote: ... But then one step back again with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-28972176

From the Daily Mirror
He (Flintoff) was warned after arguing exceptional hardship he would not be able to use the same reasons again in court if he was caught speeding again in the next three years

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mi ... z3BiFUcQiF
I don't think that that is correct. On the contrary, I believe that unless his personal circumstances were to change substantially, he's a ready-made case. AFAIK, this is why you get these FoI revelations from time to time about people with dozens of points and no ban.

Our learned friends do have a way with words:
This is really one of the stronger arguments for exceptional hardship, what he does off the radar, for those less fortunate than himself. (My emphasis.)

(same link.)
Bonefishblues
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by Bonefishblues »

TonyR wrote:One step forward with this (pity the driver the other day didn't get the same instead of community service).

But then one step back again with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-28972176

I'm not quite getting the connection, am I missing something?
TonyR
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by TonyR »

Bonefishblues wrote:
TonyR wrote:One step forward with this (pity the driver the other day didn't get the same instead of community service).

But then one step back again with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-28972176

I'm not quite getting the connection, am I missing something?


Two dead cyclists from poor driving is one connection. And the other is a driver who gets away with a ban on his fourth speeding conviction because it will cause him hardship - you'd have thought he would have thought of that after his third conviction. How about he sells the Bentley and pays a chauffeur with the proceeds to avoid the hardship?
Bonefishblues
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by Bonefishblues »

Oh I see - I thought that there was some connection with a cycle-related incident in Flintoff's past I didn't know about rather than speeding convictions. So no connection per se?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Connection is the courts, and their MPD around motorised violence.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
binsted
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by binsted »

james01 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-28968229

At least this seems to be sending a sterner message to drivers than we've seen in some previous cases. A tragic waste of a life. The sooner the mobile phone menace is sorted out the better.


The message needs to be harder, automatic life bans, get these idiots off the road for good. A driving licence should be a privilege not a human right.
Bonefishblues
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by Bonefishblues »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Connection is the courts, and their MPD around motorised violence.

I'm sure it's me, being new on the Forum and not perhaps understanding the debate fully, but how do the two instances sit together other than they both involved a car and were in a Court?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Bonefishblues wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Connection is the courts, and their MPD around motorised violence.

I'm sure it's me, being new on the Forum and not perhaps understanding the debate fully, but how do the two instances sit together other than they both involved a car and were in a Court?

No further connection needed. Motorists acting in a dangerous fashion are usually just let through the courts with barely a slapped wrist. Then they go on to do exactly the same for several years and then kill someone, at which point they are given another slap on the wrist.

For some reason society values lawbreaking above human life.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Bonefishblues
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by Bonefishblues »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Connection is the courts, and their MPD around motorised violence.

I'm sure it's me, being new on the Forum and not perhaps understanding the debate fully, but how do the two instances sit together other than they both involved a car and were in a Court?

No further connection needed. Motorists acting in a dangerous fashion are usually just let through the courts with barely a slapped wrist. Then they go on to do exactly the same for several years and then kill someone, at which point they are given another slap on the wrist.

For some reason society values lawbreaking above human life.

Where can I go to better understand this and the statistics involved in the debate - has anyone studied this?

If Flintoff's 12 points for speeding is an exemplar of a serial offender being let off with a slap on the wrist and who therefore has a higher propensity to kill someone on the road then I'd like to to look beyond this rather than shoot from the hip, as it were.
Bicycler
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by Bicycler »

Speeding once may be an unfortunate oversight, being caught on four separate occasions undoubtedly indicates thousands of incidents of speeding and a complete disrespect for the laws of the road. If that isn't serial offending, I don't know what is. There can be no proof that a prolific speeder is going to kill a cyclist - most won't. However, a vehicle carrying excess speed is more likely in any given scenario to cause a collision or be unable to react to the actions of others. It is highly unlikely that the sole flaw in a person's driving is a tendency to exceed speed limits. The same incentive which exists to ignore speed limits also exists to encourage impatience and excess speed for conditions. With very few exceptions the prolific speeders I know are also those who overestimate their driving ability or display an unhealthy attitude towards road safety.

In a work place a basic Health and Safety approach is to minimise unsafe practices. If you do not do that you will not reduce minor and major incidents. Thus, corner cutting and incidents which do not result in harm are investigated and workers reprimanded. It is not left until somebody is injured or killed for action to be taken. By the standards of the workplace the points system on the road is unbelievably lenient. If we cannot take multiple acts of substandard driving as a warning and opportunity to take action against bad drivers then people are condemned to die and prove that action should have been taken.
TonyR
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by TonyR »

Bonefishblues wrote:Where can I go to better understand this and the statistics involved in the debate - has anyone studied this?


http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaign/road-justice is a good place to start.
TonyR
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by TonyR »

Bicycler wrote:Speeding once may be an unfortunate oversight, being caught on four separate occasions ......


Probably five separate occasions as the first time probably resulted in a speed awareness course rather than points. Fat lot of good that it seems to have done in this case though.
kwackers
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Re: 10 year ban for killing cyclist

Post by kwackers »

It's all explained by the pyramid of risk.

At the top you have deaths.
On the next tier down you have injuries which are some multiple of the number of deaths.
Under that you have minor collisions which are some multiple of injuries.
Under that you have near misses.
Under that you have risky behaviour.

So basically to reduce the risk further up you have to address the issues at the base of the pyramid - in this case risky behaviour.
The problem is of course the multipliers; you need (say) 100 instances of risky behaviour for every near miss, 100 near misses for every minor collision, 100 minor collisions for every serious injury and 100 serious injuries for every death.

So your average motorist can persist in risky behaviour and never experience causing anything further up and thus consider themselves 'safe' (since the odds rapidly work out in his/her favour).
Against this you have to convince them that their behaviour needs changing but that's difficult when having been caught speeding several times society fines you pocket change and refuses to do anything that might actually change that behaviour.
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