50 mph for lorries

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VanDriver
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by VanDriver »

Re overtaking. In my experience it's not lorries moving at 40mph that cause slow-moving tail-backs, but the car drivers with no intention of overtaking that hang on to the back end of the lorries, effectively making the lorries even longer, and therefore a bigger overtaking challenge for car drivers that really do intend to overtake.
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mjr
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by mjr »

Or maybe that car driver intends to overtake when they consider it safe, but when they do, some gambler in a van has already started to overtake them and the lorry? That's happened to me more than once and my usual Alfa's loud pedal is not lacking in oomph, but so many people will start to overtake when they can't possibly see that it's clear, due to blind bends, dips and other obstructions. They're just assuming that oncoming traffic will take avoiding action which is partly why there are so many crashes and deaths :-(
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Tonyf33
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Tonyf33 »

A lot of people are reluctant to overtake even with plenty of time/space, they just don't have the confidence to do so and are overly cautious, some people can't overtake because they get too close to the vehicle in front and can't see anything nor would be able to stop in time if the vehicle had to stop suddenly.
I've experienced many times over the years drivers whom do 35-40mph behind an HGV on a national limit carriageway but have ample space & opportunity to overtake quite leisurely but just won't.
So actually it IS these types that often create problems through not overtaking, not only do they create a hazard all of their own doing (driving too close to the vehicle in front) but hinder others who legimately and safely can make progress when wanting to overtake much slower vehicles..
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mjr
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by mjr »

So retest all drivers every 10-15 years and those who won't make progress will fail the test.

I suspect rather more gamblers who overtake without visibility will lose their licence, though.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Tonyf33 wrote:A lot of people are reluctant to overtake even with plenty of time/space, they just don't have the confidence to do so and are overly cautious, some people can't overtake because they get too close to the vehicle in front and can't see anything nor would be able to stop in time if the vehicle had to stop suddenly.
I've experienced many times over the years drivers whom do 35-40mph behind an HGV on a national limit carriageway but have ample space & opportunity to overtake quite leisurely but just won't.
So actually it IS these types that often create problems through not overtaking, not only do they create a hazard all of their own doing (driving too close to the vehicle in front) but hinder others who legimately and safely can make progress when wanting to overtake much slower vehicles..


Some people are just happy to be making good progress, and 40mph *is* good progress. Bring on the driverless car, the danger in the above situation is created by the reckless overtaking, not the consistent speed of the vehicle in front.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Vorpal
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Vorpal »

IMO, overtaking safely is one of the harder things most drivers have to do. If someone doesn't have the confidence, it's safer not to overtake. In most places, the worst that likely to happen is that they go a bit slower for a few miles. Is that really all that big of a deal? Even if a queue builds up and they go for 20 miles with no place to over take, it's only a few minutes difference in travel time.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Vorpal wrote: it's only a few minutes difference in travel time.

But I am Mr Toad and must exploit the 155 mph limit of my car on all roads.

Going at 40 rather than 60 for 10 miles is a total time loss of just 5 minutes - but it *feels* like a 15 minute delay, because that's ho long the delay takes, not how long the delay is.

Traffic lights have a maximum cycle time of 120s in the UK (http://www.traffic-signal-design.com/te ... y_main.htm), although this is often reduced to 90s.
Let us assume an average of 100s and that 40% of the time they are on green.
40% of the time there is no delay on the road
60% of the time there is a delay between 60 and 0 seconds - i.e. an average of 30s.
That means the average delay from a traffic light is ~20 seconds - so passing through 3 traffic lights will delay you by ~a minute (on average)

The delay from each mile of following a vehicle at 40mph on an otherwise clear NSL road is approximately equivalent to passing *one* traffic light.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Ellieb
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Ellieb »

^ so you appear to be saying that on a 20 mile rural journey, it is just like being stopped by traffic lights 20 times. :? That isn't really selling the idea to me of not overtaking even when it is safe and appropriate
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Ellieb wrote:^ so you appear to be saying that on a 20 mile rural journey, it is just like being stopped by traffic lights 20 times. :? That isn't really selling the idea to me of not overtaking even when it is safe and appropriate

Not stopped by, passing.

And given that you will rarely have a 20 mile stretch of road to follow them down as your entire journey it is rarely a significant proportion of the time spent on a journey.

Remember the limit is not a target.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Tonyf33
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Tonyf33 »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Vorpal wrote: it's only a few minutes difference in travel time.

But I am Mr Toad and must exploit the 155 mph limit of my car on all roads.

Going at 40 rather than 60 for 10 miles is a total time loss of just 5 minutes - but it *feels* like a 15 minute delay, because that's ho long the delay takes, not how long the delay is.

Traffic lights have a maximum cycle time of 120s in the UK (http://www.traffic-signal-design.com/te ... y_main.htm), although this is often reduced to 90s.
Let us assume an average of 100s and that 40% of the time they are on green.
40% of the time there is no delay on the road
60% of the time there is a delay between 60 and 0 seconds - i.e. an average of 30s.
That means the average delay from a traffic light is ~20 seconds - so passing through 3 traffic lights will delay you by ~a minute (on average)

The delay from each mile of following a vehicle at 40mph on an otherwise clear NSL road is approximately equivalent to passing *one* traffic light.


That's not an accurate representation of what happens in real life..your driver whom is happy to sit behind an HGV doing 40mph hesitates at every roundabout, slows down (even more) before other potential 'hazards' even when it is obvious the hazard doesn't present itself, even open bends with good sight lines the brake lights go on when doing just 40-45 down to 30-35. They just don't have the ability to plan their journey ahead even by a few metres or have rudimentary driving skills (like changing gear/braking/looking out the window & steering) that wouldn't get them anywhere near passing a driving test..they tend to be the ones that go through village 30 zones at the same 40mph speed as well!

So your 10 miles ends up with an accumulation of time far greater than that lost in just in a 40-60mph speed differential, it also means you have a large following of other motorvehicles all wanting to get somewhere, some getting impatient and as with all humans errors creep in, especially when people have had a hard days work, they're less alert/more tired, just wanting to get home and some herbert is sitting blindly oblivious to everything around them.
Classic case is the A15 from Lincoln to the M180 near Scawby, it's just over 20 miles long, on a good day you can do it in well under 25 minutes sticking to the speed limit as an absolute (there's a 50 zone near the airbase), there are days when I've being stuck behind drivers whom are reluctant to overtake HGVs the whole length and it's taken 40 to do the same journey.

IF a 10 minute journey takes you 20 for no other reason than someone just isn't capable of basic driving skills then that is frustrating for a very large proportion of people..
Ellieb
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Ellieb »

Put it this way: if cycling on the road took 20 minutes but going by cyclepath took 30 minutes for the same distance, there would be plenty on here who would decry the path as being not fit for purpose and complain that segregationists didn't understand why people should always stay on the road....
SA_SA_SA
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by SA_SA_SA »

As this seems a fait acompli I would suggest that in return that the speed limits on single and dual carriageway public roads be reduced to 50 and 60mph respectively. On single carriageways that would reduce overtaking, and allow more time to see cyclists/pedestrians etc ahead. On dual carriageways it allow more time to see cyclists/pedestrians/etc ahead.

IMO 70mph is too fast for non-motorway roads shared with slow road users like pedestrians and cyclists, even at 60 mph preceding pedestrians/cyclists are approached quickly, 70 is asking for trouble IMO:
the requirement for flashing amber beacons on mobility scooters (rule 46 HWC) is an indication the dual carriageway ( a public road open to all) speed limit is too high.
It makes no sense to have the same limit on a dual carriage way and motorway.
Even 60mph probably deserves more concentration than is supplied by a lot of drivers.
Dual carriageways should be designed to make clear that they are not motorways and are just like a single carriage way except that overtaking involves no oncoming traffic: that should make them safer for slower traffic--- instead they are allowed to be more dangerous by allowing drivers to treat them as motorways !! Bahhh.

Also, the driver alone is responsible for their decision to overtake: I don't like this "it was partly their fault for driving at 40 in front of others" idea. 40mph isn't that painfully slow anyway. What about us cyclists: we're "slow"?

Should drivers unhappy at driving at 60 and overtaking everything possible (when properly safe of coarse) to maintain it be forced off the road, even if happy at 50/40? Would you rather the car behind your bike was doing 60 or less than 60?

I would prefer if the IAM and similar would concentrate more on patience and calmness than "making progress"?
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Mark1978
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by Mark1978 »

I do agree with the principle that most drivers don't know or understand that there is any difference between a dual carriageway or a motorway.

A difference in speed limit would underline that ; however a lot of dual carriageways are designed to be motorways and these should be redesignated as such.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Mark1978 wrote:....however a lot of dual carriageways are designed to be motorways and these should be redesignated as such.

But that would require expensive alternative routes/bridges etc for the road users who would be forbidden:
I suspect lowering the limit and fixing layouts dangerous to slow users (eg slip roads) would be cheaper. And perhaps making some sort of obvious (subconscious?) visual reminder that its an ordinary road containly slow or squishy road users.
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mjr
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Post by mjr »

Tonyf33 is not in the world I see in Norfolk and south Lincs, where it's the nutters who gallop up to roundabouts at sixty who don't have time to react and merge on smoothly and get in dangerous pickles, not Mr Forty mph behind a truck. There's a reason why the A17 and A15 have big red signs saying how deadly they are... and it's not because a few people hesitate: it's because a few pushy idiots don't realise a 60 limit doesn't mean all the road is always safe for 60.
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