50 mph for lorries

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.

Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby irc » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:04 pm

brynpoeth wrote:Waking speed! No, just the legal maximum as MAX and not as minimum or standard.


I agree the speed limit is not a minimum. The speed limits are not always correct though.

40mph HGV limit ....

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30mph HGV limit .....

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I remember seeing a Waitrose railfreight container at Wick. Couldn't Tesco use the railway?


They do.

It said supermarket chain Tesco's daily freight train to Inverness removed the need for 20 lorries.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-23470170
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Vorpal » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:05 pm

Ellieb wrote:^ don't know why that would be. I don't think Waitrose have a shop north of Stirling

Because they get products from lots of places?
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby brynpoeth » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:09 pm

Safeway I think!
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Vorpal » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:52 pm

irc wrote:You said anything that reduces speed is welcome. To walking speed? No? Well there is a balance then between speed limits that are too low and those that are too high. I think the current 40mph HGV limit is too low on some roads like the A9 (single carriageway). I think the current 60mph car limit on the A9 is about right. On other roads it may be too high. Lower isn't always better though. Motorways have the highest speeds and the lowest casualty rates. for their function as a national transport link a 70mph limit is better than a 50mph limit.


For a motorway, a 70 mph limit may be better than a 50 mph limit, and in many circumstances, a 50 mph limit is probably too low when it comes to its purpose as a national transport link.

However, national speed limits are lower in some other countries. And countries with better road safety statistics consistently have lower non-motorway speed limits than the UK. In Norway motorway speed limits are no more than 100 kph, and in populous areas, they are typically 70 or 80 kph. In other parts of Scandinavia, motorway speed limits can be higher in rural areas, but vary from 70 to 100 kph in populated areas. Finland also has lower speed limits for winter.

National speed limits on rural roads are either 70 or 80 kph, and 40 or 50 for main roads in cities. Residential areas have speed limits of 20 kph.
While traffic density is much lower in these countries, I am sure that the relatively low speed limits contribute to the good road safety statistics. I am also certain that they contribute to the number of trips made by bicycle (9% in Finland and 4% in Norway) despite Norwegian hills and Finnish winters.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Tonyf33 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:21 pm

brynpoeth wrote:I have travelled on the train from the south to Inverness, but I have not been on the A9. In the "south" (Shropshire, Wales, A49, A44, A470 etc) I can not remember being held up by a truck that was obeying the law. On single-carriageway roads it is much more likely that they will come up from behind and try to force me to go faster, althought the view ahead does not permit this.

Anyone got tips here, what driving tactics are appropriate? I can not go faster. Should I pull off and let the terrorist by? The next one ist just behind!

The police must get out there and do many more speed checks so that obeying the law is the norm, not the exception. The police should change sides to earn the respect of law-abiding drivers.

Maybe there are arguments for "relaxing" the law in certain places, but I have a great aversion to increasing motor speeds in any circumstances

Any legislation can not be enacted immediately. In the meantime the police must get out there and punish!

The police are utterly useless, I cycled past a 'sting' operation where 5, yes FIVE officers were waiting with their static laser gun on a tripod down a leafy 30mph road on the outskirts of Stevenage. Now considering the road doesn't really lead anywhere except round the back end of the outer edge of a private housing area and there's a faster main route the other side of the estate leading out of Stevenage I can't possibly think why they would be setting up there & not at locations far more obvious for speeding motorvehicles presenting far more danger..
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Pugwash » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:27 am

Does anyone have a link to the consultation ?
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby BSRU » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:35 am

This morning whilst whizzing down a hill at 40mph in a 40mph zone I had this misfortune to be caught by an articulated HGV and then tailgated by said vehicle.
Then to my surprise the driver decided on a suicidal overtake on a blind bend, I quickly scrubbed loads of speed to ensure the end of the trailer passed me as soon as possible, in the event he swerved back in. :shock:
It is ironic that one of the so called justifications for upping the limit is safety :!:
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby irc » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:28 pm

Vorpal wrote:And countries with better road safety statistics consistently have lower non-motorway speed limits than the UK.


The UK has a fatality rate of 4.3 per billion km. The only countries with lower rates are Denmark (3.4), Iceland (3.8), Ireland (3.4), Sweden (3.7), Norway (3.3),

Their motorway speed limits are - Denmark 110-130kph, Iceland 90kph, Ireland 120kph, Sweden 110-120kph, Norway 100kph. So 3 of the 5 countries with better safety records have higher motorway speed limits than the UK (70mph is 112kph).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Pete Owens » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:16 pm

irc wrote:
Vorpal wrote:And countries with better road safety statistics consistently have lower non-motorway speed limits than the UK.


The UK has a fatality rate of 4.3 per billion km. The only countries with lower rates are Denmark (3.4), Iceland (3.8), Ireland (3.4), Sweden (3.7), Norway (3.3),

Their motorway speed limits are - Denmark 110-130kph, Iceland 90kph, Ireland 120kph, Sweden 110-120kph, Norway 100kph. So 3 of the 5 countries with better safety records have higher motorway speed limits than the UK (70mph is 112kph).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate


I have highlited a small word that you seem to have missed in the post you are replying to. Particularly as this is a cycle forum, where conditions on motorways are not particularly relevant to our safety.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby pete75 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:41 pm

Vorpal wrote: And countries with better road safety statistics consistently have lower non-motorway speed limits than the UK.


On the other hand Serbia, non motorway limit 50, deaths per 100,000 vehicles 32.9 (UK is 6.2), Albania limit 50, deaths 97.2, Bulgaria limit 56 deaths 23.6,Hungary limit 56 deaths 21.3. You can prove anything with statistics providing you choose only those which support your argument.
If you look at speed limits and road deaths throughout Europe there is no trend whatsoever to show that having lower speed limits than here leads to fewer road deaths. Other than Germany and Austria all European countries have lower non motorway limits than Britain. Almost all have higher road death rates.

I'd bet the differences in road deaths in different European nations are largely due to factors other than speed limits.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby irc » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:40 pm

Pete Owens wrote:
irc wrote:
Vorpal wrote:And countries with better road safety statistics consistently have lower non-motorway speed limits than the UK.


The UK has a fatality rate of 4.3 per billion km. The only countries with lower rates are Denmark (3.4), Iceland (3.8), Ireland (3.4), Sweden (3.7), Norway (3.3),

Their motorway speed limits are - Denmark 110-130kph, Iceland 90kph, Ireland 120kph, Sweden 110-120kph, Norway 100kph. So 3 of the 5 countries with better safety records have higher motorway speed limits than the UK (70mph is 112kph).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate


I have highlited a small word that you seem to have missed in the post you are replying to. Particularly as this is a cycle forum, where conditions on motorways are not particularly relevant to our safety.


Thanks for that Pete. I had indeed missed it :oops: A dancing bear moment.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Vorpal » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:19 pm

pete75 wrote: I'd bet the differences in road deaths in different European nations are largely due to factors other than speed limits.

That's a fair comment. While I'm not sure about the 'largely', it's certain that reduce speed limits only help because they are enforced. And other factors will contribute as well. How much each factor influences it, is impossible for me to say.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Pete Owens » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:10 pm

pete75 wrote:Other than Germany and Austria all European countries have lower non motorway limits than Britain. Almost all have higher road death rates.

I'd bet the differences in road deaths in different European nations are largely due to factors other than speed limits.


Actually if you break it down by road type then speed does feature stronlgy.

The UK performs comparitavely well in terms of road safety for car users. Since a large proportion of car mileage is on motorways then this is strongly influenced by our reletavely low motorway speed limits, making our motorways some of the safest in the Worrld.

The UK performs extremely poorly with respect to the safety of vulnerable road users - who are to be found on the non-motorway roads. Here our reletavely high speed limits lead these roads to be relatively dangerous by European standards.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby pete75 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:45 pm

Pete Owens wrote:
pete75 wrote:Other than Germany and Austria all European countries have lower non motorway limits than Britain. Almost all have higher road death rates.

I'd bet the differences in road deaths in different European nations are largely due to factors other than speed limits.


Actually if you break it down by road type then speed does feature stronlgy.

The UK performs comparitavely well in terms of road safety for car users. Since a large proportion of car mileage is on motorways then this is strongly influenced by our reletavely low motorway speed limits, making our motorways some of the safest in the Worrld.

The UK performs extremely poorly with respect to the safety of vulnerable road users - who are to be found on the non-motorway roads. Here our reletavely high speed limits lead these roads to be relatively dangerous by European standards.


And most of those vulnerable road user deaths are in built up areas where Britain has slightly lower speed limits than most European countries. 43% of pedestrians killed are over the alcohol limit for driving with 34% at least double the limit. I wonder how that compares with other nations. Only 13% for cyclists though.
Anyhow I'd like to see comparative statistics if you have any. For example are vulnerable road users safer in Albania or Serbia with their 50mph limit than here with a 60 limit.
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Re: 50 mph for lorries

Postby Pete Owens » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:34 am

While a nominal default limit of 50kph is indeed slightly higher than 30mph - most European countries (certainly those with a good road safety record) make extensive use of 30 kph limits throughout urban areas - while in the UK it is common to see higher limits of 40-50 mph on suburban residential streets.
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